Update on Spring Status

okay, just got back from the shop(s), went to two diff shops...one to take measurements and well...another to take measurements lol.

okay, the issue now is still spring rates. I was talking to Raymond(Bossman) last nite and he was saying that the suggested springrate was too high for the weight of our cars. Ray(the guy at the shop) said the same thing.

stock spring rates are approximately:
Front: 148lbs/in
Rear: 131lbs/in

what they normally do is go 15% from stock.
Front: 170lbs/in
Rear: 150lbs/in

we obviously want to go higher. but under 400lb/in front and 375lbs/in rears.

what do you guys think? I suggest 325lbs/in front with 275lbs/in rears.

again, we can have the high spring rates if that's what everybody wants, but I think we should make sure that's what we want. I told him I'd try to call him with an answer by monday.

Please keep in mind the weight and weight distrubution of the car. approximately 600lbs - 700lbs each corner. that's around 2" - 3" of travel. with a 300lbs spring.

Raymond also brought up an issue where the spring may fall out of the perch. I talked to the shop owner about it and he said that what they do is they have a seperate set of coils on the spring that will fill in the gap. this won't affect handling whatsoever, it's just there to keep the spring in the perch at full extension. so that's not an issue. he also said that in the industry that's what is considered "progressive" but it's just a linear spring with a lil bit at the end to keep it from falling out. he doesn't make REAL progressive springs which have variable rates all over the spring. so that's not an issue.

Camber kits: He's not sure what to do about camber kit for our cars yet. He'll talk to the other shop owner who may be able to do the fabrication and design of them. if HE can't do it, he has another contact that probably will be able to. The other shop owner has experience building full on race cars.

Also, the fronts won't need a camber kit. we can have one made up..but he said it's pretty mucn useless cause the camber won't be significant. only the rears.

no confirmed confirmed price of course, but it WILL be cheap for the springs. I asked him why his prices are so low, and he was saying that even though he uses the same material H&R and Eibach uses, and even powdercoats it all, we're buying direct. So unlike other cheap springs, we'll be getting quality stuff.

Confirmed:
Drop: 1.75" drop all 4 corners
Type: Linear
Will not fall out of perches

Unconfirmed:
Spring Rate: ???
Camber Kit(just needs development which I'll be working with them on..well..bringing in myc ar to be the test subject ahhaha)

PS: thanks Raymond for hooking me up with the springs. they just had to take wheels off so I wasn't charged anything. The springs will be at your side door 2morrow after I finish church at like 1:30/2:00ish? Sorry I couldn't go check out your S12 last nite...I was in a rush to get to coquitlam for my best friend's b-day party(ahahha she was mad I was late cause of car parts..ahhah OOPS)

edit: here are the pictures of the car lowered

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/df.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/dr.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/front.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/rear.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/rear_height.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/front_height.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/rear_gap.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/front_gap.JPG

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/side_profile.JPG

this is the best I could do for before pics..sorry
http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/s12_dusty14.jpg

http://www.initialsource.com/~indy/car/s12_dusty12.jpg

I would like the rears to be atleast the same rate as the front...this being at lease 325 for the rear...but presonally I like the 400 idea...

i would like the higher spring rate. i could handle a 325 fr and rr spring rate. i would like a little stiffer, however some people are more experienced than i am with the rates for these cars.

maybe they could offer 2 different rates?? if thats not to much to ask of course :razz:

Either way I want a set of whatever lbs/in rating they make them. 325lb/275lb sounds fine to me. Even if they go 300/250 i'll be happy. :beer:

Either way I want a set of whatever lbs/in rating they make them. 325lb/275lb sounds fine to me. Even if they go 300/250 i'll be happy. :beer:

Im with him. ;-) I will be happy with anything.

it's basically up to us.

we can have anything we want really. but I think we should get a basic set of springs made up first and then talk about specific ones.

I wasn't sure if the rates decided on before were taking into account the weight of the car.

those rates from before(400lbs/in front and 375lbs/in rears) would make the car very stiff, and very prone to oversteer. something good for the autoXers and Drifters, but not something practical for the everyday driver/occasional racer.

however, the 15% increase in my opinion is too soft.

FYI - rule number one in engineering design, if something works copy it. As I recalled from the old forum, both Tokico and Suspension Technique made their springs for the S12 with 175 lbs F/R and 1" drop. Eibach's rating was 225/180 F/R (I think) progressive and again 1" drop. These are all designed for street uses and not for the track. So far I haven't heard any major negative issues from anyone with the Tokico springs or the lucky few with EVO springs from England. I'm the only one here who has the ST made from the S12 (not the 280/300 combo) and I'm quite satisfied with the "light" rating. Like Indy said, the higher rating will most lightly suit the club racer and drifters, but for the regular drive around town with potholes, man covers and speed bumps, the stiff springs will just slow you down.

My rear springs are 260lb and around 40mm drop over standard, they are good for almost anything but i want the rear a little stiffer for drift, probably 200lb would be fine though. Just my 2c.

as long as i can put them in my SE i dont really care.. and as long as they wont make the suspension so soft that you feel you're in a boat its cool with me

i have 250's in the rear and they are a tad too soft... 350-375 was what i was looking at getting anyways..

what about 375 for the front 300 for the rear

PLEASE!!!!

I too was already looking for F:400 R:~350 sring rates for my car, i dont care how crappy it is to drive on shitty roads, my car is mainly for drift and racing.

I have the Tokico 1 inch lowering springs they are rated 175 lbs/inch all around. I myself would like to see something over 250 lbs/inch. 175 is way too soft still.

I'd like to see the rear a little stiffer than the front ...

In contrast to what you guys are saying, I'd prefer not to go overboard on stiffness as I do use the car as a daily driver and I have Crohn's disease ... When it flares up again, I certainly don't want to have to stop driving my car because my body can't handle the bumps ... But I also strongly dislike the stock suspension's softness ...

I think the Tokico's are plenty stiff.....well for me anyways......especially with the crappy roads around here. Maybe it's the Tokico strut inserts, and KYB shocks that help firm it up more......but it's by far way stiffer than the OE stuff.
I think if you guys go too much stiffer....you gonna regret it.....especially if it's your daily driver.....track purposes yeah....but on the road around town thats different.

okay, I think the 325lbs/in front and 275lbs/in rears are gonna be a good compromise...

2morrow this will be the rates I'll be telling them, unless there is ABSOLUTELY a demand for higher or lower rates.

everybody okay with this?

james, what you can do, is try to buy the rears from this set, and then pick up a set of ST springs for the front. then you'll have higher rear and lower front rates.

Sounds good to me. How long will it take for them to produce these spring once you tell them the rates?

I just want to point out that if they can't find an easy bolt on solution for rear camber correction you may not want to drop the rear 1.75 inches. I'd estimate that with stock wheel and tires sizes that would give about -4 to -5 degrees of camber in the back. Not to mention the negative camber increases as the suspension is loaded and this would not give very good traction in cornering. I know on the old forum and this forum we have discussed camber correction and there was a company Spec Products that made camber kits. We found however that the design called for drilling a hole and installing these camber bolts. The problem is there isn't much "meat" in that portion of the metal and it could easily break so we deemed this kit not very safe. I believe Bart was discussing camber fixes before and he talked about cutting and rewelding part of the lower rear control arms (at the mounting area I believe) correct me if i'm wrong. So I think an easy bolt on camber fix for the rear isn't going to happen. I would suggest dropping the rear at most 1.25 inches. That would give around -3 to -3.5 degrees of camber depending upon wheel and tire width. Keith and I both have the tokico 1 inch lowering springs and Keith has -3 degrees of camber and I have -2.5. The reason I have -2.5 is due to I think having slightly wider wheels. I have 6.5in wide wheels where as Keith is running the stock 6in wide wheels. So something to think about is the camber in case a solution can't be easily adapted. Excessive camber will lessen overall tire grip and contact patch which will not be good for hard accleration and hard cornering. So I think this is an important aspect and should be kept in mind. However I do feel that a 1.75in drop in the front is pretty much perfect. As far as spring rates go the Tokicos at 175 lbs are decently stiff for street use. I think the stiffest I would go for street in a linear spring would be 250 lbs. My 2 cents.

I know on the old forum and this forum we have discussed camber correction and there was a company Spec Products that made camber kits. We found however that the design called for drilling a hole and installing these camber bolts. The problem is there isn't much "meat" in that portion of the metal and it could easily break so we deemed this kit not very safe.
Yeah....I had ordered the Specialty Products rear camber kit....and took it to my local alignment shop, and they said no way.....where the new hole needed to be drilled there just wasn't enough room left on the bracket for the new hole. Although someone on this board or the old board had the kit put on their car with no problems.
This has been brought up before, but I think tire size (width) plays a big role in the - camber.....I had 225/50's on the stock rims when I first got the Tokicos, and had no wear problems at all. It wasn't until I got the more narrow 205/55's when the wear problems began.
I think I would only want new front springs to bring it down a little more....the rear with the 1" Tokico drop is pretty much where I want it....probably less than 1" from the top of the tire.....where as the front is about 3" from the top of the tire to the fender.

I think I would only want new front springs to bring it down a little more....the rear with the 1" Tokico drop is pretty much where I want it....probably less than 1" from the top of the tire.....where as the front is about 3" from the top of the tire to the fender.

That's how I feel about it as far as the drop goes. The rear really is where I want it in terms of height and the front is still too high.

175 lbs/in is stiff enough for me too Keith and I don't think it has any thing to do with the KYBs. I had the stock Tokico shocks when I put my ST springs on and what made the ride "hard" were the Pirelli P500s. Those tires don't have much side wall flex and the ride is now so much better with my set of Bridgestone RE92s - stock rims and sizes. When I changed the shocks the ride is actually a tad less stiff but my road feel and control is back. If I were to get new springs I think I'll get a copy of Eibach instead with 225/180 progressive but 1.25 in drop at the most. If the car goes any lower there may be some clearance issue with the front fenders never mind about the rear cambers. Higher rating will be good for high speed smooth corners but not for regular city slickers rider like me. Just my $50 cdn. worth since that's how much I charge per hour for my consultation.

okay, I went through thel ast thread too, and I think that most people will be okay with sacrificing ride quality.

so I'll go with the 325/275 setup. HOWEVER, I'll also ask if they're willing to make a set with a lower(higher?..whatever you understand) drop(1.25" all around) with the eibach rates 225/180

is the drop sufficient enough for those who want the lighter springs?

edit: iono if they'll do a 2nd rate tho...

I think those rates are fine for a high performance set of springs which is what many of us want. I just wanted to address the concern of rear camber in case there isn't an easy and viable solution to address that. That can easily be avoided by compromising with a slightly taller rear spring.

I'll suggest a 1.25" drop instead of 1.75" for the rear if a bolt on camber kit can't be made, or made effectively.

Sounds good

When I used to have the Tokico springs that were rated @ 175lbs and I was drifting on them, all I was doing was plowing from left to right. I dont think 250lbs rates would be enuf either....

I stick by the spring rates that I said I'd go with earlier....hopefully we get this all sorted out really soon, dont want to hold up the production of the springs.

Well i have the tokicos 175 lbs springs and i personally think that spring rate sucks! Maybe cause i am sr pawered, but whatever the case is we need a rear spring rate that is at least, 250-275. A 1.75 inch drop would look killer and give it that aggresive stance but if it causes a camber issue with out being corrected we might have to go a little higher.

So maybe u guys can confirm my question....
A drift set up should have a higher spring rate in the rear right? thus over steer.
And a street set up should have the oppisite, softer in the rear for understeer right?

yes, higher rear springrate/bound/rebound assists in oversteer.

you can also use negative camber too tho.

so if we do get 1.75" drop WITH a camber kit, you can get plenty of rear negative camber.

as for for street use having to have higher front that rear...that's not true. most people just react better to understeer than over steer.

for a RWD car tho, I think it's better to have it this way to offset any oversteer you'd have anyways. it would make the car feel more balanced around corners.

Wow! Be careful with the numbers Indy, there is a big difference between 180lbs and 118 lbs!

Another way to dial in some oversteer/understeer is to play around with the front/rear tire pressure.

hahaha oh, for the eibachs?? ahhaha

whoops..I guess I was just typing/referencing too fast heh.

I thought it was a little low...

Humm sounds good. So what is the confirmed spring rate and ride height?When do guys think the springs will be good to go?!?!

I would like to add my thoughts on camber vs. ride height. I just recently had an alignment done. Using stock wheels (15x6) and stock size tires (205/60/15) I came out with 3.1 degrees of negative camber. I don't know how much my car is dropped, but it's a heck of a lot more than 1.75". The top of my rear tire is about even with the wheel opening. There really isn't any gap. My advice would be to stick with the 1.75", even though 2" would look better. :lick: I'm not sure why Keith would have 3 degrees negative camber with only a 1" drop????

The tokicos advertised a 1 inch drop but it could very well be a little more as it seems the rear sits lower than the front by a decent amount. I have them also and it may be a little more than an inch who knows. I do have -2.5 degrees of camber with 15x6.5 in wheels. Most camber i would want is -3 degrees or so. Also dependending upon how long Keith has had his tokico springs they may have settled more over time. I have only had mine a few years as I got them when they were closing them out.

Also, If the rubber bushings are old..they are part of the problem too.

Just because there is a smaller "gap" between the wheel arch and the top of the tire at the rear it doesn't mean the back of the car is lowered more then the front. The front arch is always higher then the rear arch OEM. This has to be in order to clear the front tire when your steering is in full lock position. If you ask me, I would think my front dropped more then the rear with my ST springs. The negative camber in the rear is also deceiving since the inside of the rear wheel in actually higher (lower depending on your perspective) then the outside.

I think we should just start out with a 350lb all around. Then if we want to get more intense, different springs will have to be made. Then if you orderes the 350lb ones all around and you want 400's in the rear, then you get the 400's.

We can't make everyone happy off the bat, but at these prices, I think many of us can afford this for now and invest in stiffer/ softer ones later once they are developed.

So come on guys, The more we bitch and moan about what rates we want, the longer we have to wait to get them... I for one want to get this stuff as soon as I can before I HAVE to invest in something else, like somewhere to live, and FOOD! So cut the crap and go 350lb. Thats at the stiffer side of "average" anyway.

Well said Nemisis! :devil:

I totally agree with u bro, just get em made and c where we can improve, b/c i defenetly want some of these muthasuckaz! But would it hurt to go 2"?

okay, well I called in already with:
325lb/in front and 1.75" drop
275lbs/in rear and 1.75" drop with camber kit, 1.25" w/o camber kit

Ray will be calling me back later this afternoon to tell me when I can bring in my car again to have a look at what we can do as far as camber kits go.

an issue Ray brought up was actual interest. he said you guys have been sending in e-mails, but it seems like it's been more of individual rates and stuff.

what they want to make this permanent is 50 orders. I'd love to have been the first, but money is too tight for me, so I'll have to wait until the spring when I get my tax return from my summer job.

Well you can put me down as a definte YES for one set.

Will I have any problems with ground clearance in VT with snow? You canadian guys could tell me, I assume you have taken that into account? If they'll be no problems with clearance, then I am a yes, and for real this time.

Im in for a set. :)

::raises hand:: ooooo ooooo ooooo pick me. im ready.

Put me down also defenetly!! Thats for a full set with the camber kit. Do u know how much it would be? estimate?

:kicknuts: I definitely want a set.

YankeeDrifter, as long as the snow is not too deep, like 6 inchs or so, then it ok. .... Wait, that's only with one inch drop and snow tires. Better get yourself a Honda for the winters!

Im in... for like the 5th time

I won't be driving if there's 6in, but the snow clearance shouldn't be an issue?

If you didn't know, I'm in for a set! Camber kit as well!

I have no major problem driving in snow but even with a 4 wheel drive if the snow is too deep you'll loose traction because of the up-lift with the snow getting packed under the floor pan of the car. Extra ground clearance always help in deep snow; this is where the advantage of adjustable suspension height really comes in.