The next step?

I've been throwing a lot of parts at my car in the last 2-3 months and its realy snappy and everything but I was hoping for some advice about what the next mods would be best for the setup I've got. Heres what I've done so far.
cold air induction
volvo intercooler
mbc set at 12 psi
2 1/2 inch exhaust, no cat, cherry bomb muffler
msd blaster coils
new distributor cap, rotor, plugs, ngk wire set
water injector for the intercooler
bov from a 98 talon
new o2 sensor
new tps sensor
ractive cone filter
I'me not sure what I should try next so any advice would be great, I was thinking an safc2 or a better turbo but I'me not sure.

T25... :evillaug: Might be better if this was in the CA18ET forum though...

It is now.

Ok here's the thing, a T25 on this car is only gonna be a band-aid, he needs at the very least a T28. I say an FP Big28/28 is the way to go, flows better than a T3 with superior spool-up, and will literally bolt onto your stock exhaust manifold, as well as use your original O2 housing (meaning you can keep your present downpipe which of course is awesome).

With that you need more fuel. I suggest a high-flow pump replacement, an adjustable FPR to tune it back down to reasonably close-to-stock, and then use an AFC (which we now know will work on our cars) to tune the fuel curve... using a 2-bar MAP sensor rather than airflow meter to actuate the AFC's control.

That will give you both the turbo flow capacity and all the fuel you will need to take your present already-installed parts well into 300. That's no exaggeration either.

AFC+hi-flow pump+Adj. FPR+T28/Big28+tuning patience=300+hp club.

Sound about right to you veterans?

Why swap to a MAP sensor? I always thought it would be better just slapping a bigger (like a Z31) MAF in...

I stand to be corrected on this, but I believe MAP sensors are more suitable when going after big horsepower - hence their use with aftermarket ECU's - whereas AFM's are better at getting the engine tuned to low emissions, hence their use with stock ECU's.

Surely you would be wanting to upgrade internals before going for 300+ HP? I can't see an engine with stock internals lasting too long at that kind of power.

Holy crap, 300hp, yowza. I was hoping for like 200 after all that stuff, but I guess I don't have an idea what kind of power my car is pushing right now. I imagine I'll need a heavy duty clutch for this kind of power but what else would be a good idea? I was thinking u-joints, new bushing kit bigger radiator and the like. My car with 300hp would move like a goddamn rocket, I can't wait (but I guess I'll have to) Thank for all your help so far.

Well MAP's are harder to keep tuned perfectly because they only go back to a set of air/fuel maps to read off of, where as a MAF is constantly tuning based on the incoming air and the O2 sensor. That's why it's hard to bolt-on parts on a car with a stock MAP sensor, but cars with MAF stock (like Mustang 5.0's) respond well to bolt-ons because the ECU is constantly making changes to keep up. The MAP sensor ECU always goes back to the same set of maps to read, and the only way to get it right is to change those maps.

That's why people spend so much time tuning those high $$$ aftermarket systems. But the reason they like it is because the MAF becomes one of the biggest restrictions in the intake, where as a MAP sensor is easy to tuck out of the way in the intake manifold.

I know this has probably been posted somewhere else but I can't find it so what would be a good MAF to swap into my car to replace the skinny stock one. I imagine that thing is a big restriction, so will a mustang 5.0 MAF fit? Is there any way to improve the stock one? Thanks.

why read pressure when you can see the air flow? it doesn't matter if the pressure in the intake is 1000000000 psi (exaggerating). if the engine flowing 450 CFM you need to put enough fuel in to make it combust properly.

I'd stick with a MAF there are stock one's for a lot of different power levels. Though changing to a 300ZX either the Z31 or z32 would definately be in the works. make sure you take out the screens too.

edit: haha good timing I didn't see your post when I posted this :laugh:

Hahaha you guys need to read what I said more cosely... I never said anything about swapping out the MAF for a MAP. I said (and I quote):

and then use an AFC (which we now know will work on our cars) to tune the fuel curve... using a 2-bar MAP sensor rather than airflow meter to actuate the AFC's control.
I probably should have worded it better, though... the AFC uses throttle position to determine fuel changes. It's not all that logical really, and in the case of our 0,1 throttle switches, it does us no good anyways.

Instead, you can feed the AFC's TPS signal wire with an output from a MAP sensor T'd off a manifold source.

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/foolafc.html

You still have the basic signal intercepting the AFM, but you use a MAP sensor to control the fuel changes based on boost. Makes perfect sense. I wonder if One_Equals_Two knows about this. Maybe he should pay special attention to this lol.

There is a 2-bar map sensor laying in the floorboard of the car. We just havent hooked it up yet.

Okay, so far it seems I need a bigger turbo, a map sensor piped in, an afc, and bigger injectors and probably a better clutch. All this stuff should be easy to find (sort of) so by spring I should have it all installed. This has probably been posted elsewhere but where can I find a t28 to use on my car and also what injectors would be a good choice. A friend of mine said he would sell me the ones out of his 91 talon, I think they are 330cc's. This is starting to look like a badass recipe for mayhem, anybody else run the same type of setup (same mods I mean) and if so what were the results? 300hp just so wild its almost hard to believe.

Don't forget an upgraded fuel pump and bigger fuel rails. Bart's making me a fuel rail specifically for the DSM injectors, I'm getting the 450cc's, but that might be a little overkill for your setup.

I think Bart is running 370cc CA18DET injectors, not sure how easy those are to get, but DSM injectors can easily be had for $50.

You're probably OK for now, but you might throw in a bigger cam a little on down the road too...

When he does finish the O-ring style rail, I have my own set of stock 1G manual injectors I can use.

....bov from a 98 talon....

you're going to need a better BOV too.

Ok here's the thing, a T25 on this car is only gonna be a band-aid, he needs at the very least a T28. I say an FP Big28/28 is the way to go, flows better than a T3 with superior spool-up, and will literally bolt onto your stock exhaust manifold, as well as use your original O2 housing (meaning you can keep your present downpipe which of course is awesome).

A t28 wouldn't be a good as a real t3 for one reason, the exhaust housing. The t28 uses a t25 exhaust housing, this makes it convient to bolt to our manifold, but really restrictive for power.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_advanced.html
This webpage talks about the 2.2L and 2.5L Dodge turbo engines. Chrysler put T3 turbos on these cars. They came with a .48 exhaust housing stock. The popular upgrade is to go to the .63 housing. It introduces a bit more lag, but makes a whole lot more power on the top end. The important quotes are:

"The ideal combo for a 2.2 engine & daily street use IMHO is the S60 compressor housing & larger wheel with the .48 exhaust housing BUT this will limit you to 250-270 hp. The .63 housing is REQUIRED for 270+ hp!!"

Now I don't know for absolute sure, but I have a hunch that the .48 t3 housing will flow more than a t25 housing. Still, if the t25 housing limits you to 250hp, that's a whole lot more than stock and it would still scream.

With that you need more fuel. I suggest a high-flow pump replacement, an adjustable FPR to tune it back down to reasonably close-to-stock, and then use an AFC (which we now know will work on our cars) to tune the fuel curve... using a 2-bar MAP sensor rather than airflow meter to actuate the AFC's control.

I know you meant to type TPS instead of airflow meter in that statement (or at least that's what you corrected in the later post), but you will also need to upgrade the MAF sensor as well. The MAF can only read to about 200 hp. Just an addition to what will need to be changed. One really nice thing is you can use two MAFs together with the S-AFC, for example you can use two Z32 MAFs since they are definitely good enough for 300HP.

That will give you both the turbo flow capacity and all the fuel you will need to take your present already-installed parts well into 300. That's no exaggeration either.

AFC+hi-flow pump+Adj. FPR+T28/Big28+tuning patience=300+hp club.

Sound about right to you veterans?

With the t28, I don't think there is any chance of 300HP. Maybe 250HP, but not 300HP. With my .63 A/R T3 @ 14 psi, it will flow enough air for about 200HP. Now, the standard t28 compressor is the same as the 60 trim t3 wheel. I would imagine that this "Big T28" is probably a Super 60 wheel, which does flow a bit more, but not a whole lot more. The 60 trim wheel flows enough air for roughly 320HP at the flywheel @20psi, assuming that the head has a really great VE, however ours does not, so it's not going to hit that mark. The Super 60 wheel is good for about 350 HP at the same boost. But you still have to route all that burned gas through that little t25 housing, so I don't think you'll have to worry about coming anywhere close to 300HP.

The other bad thing about the big t28 is that you would probably have to buy it new. If you were to use a t25 or a t3, then you can pick one of those up at a junkyard (or eBay) for less than $300 easy (eBay is closer to $100 if you look around). You can find regular t28s on eBay as well, you may be able to get that for cheap, but since they are more rare, expect to pay a whole lot more for one. Also, with a t28 or t3 you will probably need to replace your motor mount with a solid mount as the compressor housing will not clear the stock mount. I know you have to replace it with the t3, if the t28 is placed higher then it might fit, but it would probably be really tight.

If you wanted a simple bolt on upgrade, then a t25 would be the way to go. If you wanted a turbo that would be good for future upgrades and lots of power, I would go for a .63 AR T3 (not from the Z31, they use a 50trim wheel instead of the 60 trim). With the T3, you can always put a T04 compressor on it later and just use the old T3 exhaust housing. The S-AFC would probably be good for about 10HP or so, but it wouldn't offer nearly as much bang for the buck as a turbo upgrade. It would not be needed for a turbo upgrade either.

I hate to disagree, but...

A t28 wouldn't be a good as a real t3 for one reason, the exhaust housing. The t28 uses a t25 exhaust housing, this makes it convient to bolt to our manifold, but really restrictive for power.
http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_advanced.html
This webpage talks about the 2.2L and 2.5L Dodge turbo engines. Chrysler put T3 turbos on these cars. They came with a .48 exhaust housing stock. The popular upgrade is to go to the .63 housing. It introduces a bit more lag, but makes a whole lot more power on the top end. The important quotes are:

"The ideal combo for a 2.2 engine & daily street use IMHO is the S60 compressor housing & larger wheel with the .48 exhaust housing BUT this will limit you to 250-270 hp. The .63 housing is REQUIRED for 270+ hp!!"
You are talking about a 2.2 versus a 1.8L engine, not to mention, in their case, a much more restrictive exhaust manifold design (ever seen a turbo dodge mani?), and an equally poor O2 housing design.

Now I don't know for absolute sure, but I have a hunch that the .48 t3 housing will flow more than a t25 housing. Still, if the t25 housing limits you to 250hp, that's a whole lot more than stock and it would still scream.
You're only considerig the turbine side, and besides, the advantage is spoolup time. Also, you don't need a T3 sixed turbine to make good power. There are other tricks you can do to the smaller turbine. Just ask guys running 16G's on DSM's versus the big T3/T4 conversions.

I know you meant to type TPS instead of airflow meter in that statement (or at least that's what you corrected in the later post), but you will also need to upgrade the MAF sensor as well. The MAF can only read to about 200 hp. Just an addition to what will need to be changed. One really nice thing is you can use two MAFs together with the S-AFC, for example you can use two Z32 MAFs since they are definitely good enough for 300HP.
Well, now, it's funny you mention this, because I was at a local Z meet just a couple weeks ago, and a guy has a 240Z with an SR20DET swap in his, and guess what airflow meter it uses? The same housing (and I suspect, hotwire internals) as our CA18ET's. And he is making over 250hp, poorly tuned. I used to think like you do about our airflow meters, but now I think we have very possibly underestimated yet another aspect of the CA18ET platform.

With the t28, I don't think there is any chance of 300HP. Maybe 250HP, but not 300HP. With my .63 A/R T3 @ 14 psi, it will flow enough air for about 200HP. Now, the standard t28 compressor is the same as the 60 trim t3 wheel. I would imagine that this "Big T28" is probably a Super 60 wheel, which does flow a bit more, but not a whole lot more. The 60 trim wheel flows enough air for roughly 320HP at the flywheel @20psi, assuming that the head has a really great VE, however ours does not, so it's not going to hit that mark. The Super 60 wheel is good for about 350 HP at the same boost. But you still have to route all that burned gas through that little t25 housing, so I don't think you'll have to worry about coming anywhere close to 300HP.
Well to begin with here, since you are relying on T3 examples via turbo dodge, let me set the record straight... they have commonly pushed the stock T3 with its smaller exhaust housing into the 30 psi range on the stock inefficent intercooler no less. many of those cars were 12 sec wonders.

Now, take into consideration that the T28 is NOT at all similar to the T25 or T2 in flow specs. They utilize the same flanging and exhaust inlet size but that is where the similarities end, as the T28's volume is close to or equivalent to a T3. The T28 flows like moderate T3, and the Forced Performance BigT28/28 flows like a hybrid T3/T4. Talk to both Turbonetics and Forced Performance and they will tell you all you ever wanted to know about T28 series vs. the old T3. The T28 has more potential and you sell it short, not to mention it's a DIRECT BOLT ON. ANd btw, it's exhaust turbine housing is NOT its weakness. weaker (thinner) centershafts and smaller/thinner bearings make the standard T3 look like a brute.

The other bad thing about the big t28 is that you would probably have to buy it new. If you were to use a t25 or a t3, then you can pick one of those up at a junkyard (or eBay) for less than $300 easy (eBay is closer to $100 if you look around). You can find regular t28s on eBay as well, you may be able to get that for cheap, but since they are more rare, expect to pay a whole lot more for one. Also, with a t28 or t3 you will probably need to replace your motor mount with a solid mount as the compressor housing will not clear the stock mount. I know you have to replace it with the t3, if the t28 is placed higher then it might fit, but it would probably be really tight.
Again not true, the T25 is the last thing you want to buy off of ebay, it;s stil too small and has seen lots of heat. And you can find T28's in ebay just as easilly as T25's and T2's. I bet there are at least two up for auction now. They seem to be between $350 and $500.

The T28 has almost (not quite) the same dimetions as a T2 and T25, the most you would need would be a spacer so the compressor housing clears the exhaust manifold, otherwise this is the best turbo because of the packaging advange. It will also bolt up to your existing downpipe.

If you wanted a simple bolt on upgrade, then a t25 would be the way to go. If you wanted a turbo that would be good for future upgrades and lots of power, I would go for a .63 AR T3 (not from the Z31, they use a 50trim wheel instead of the 60 trim). With the T3, you can always put a T04 compressor on it later and just use the old T3 exhaust housing. The S-AFC would probably be good for about 10HP or so, but it wouldn't offer nearly as much bang for the buck as a turbo upgrade. It would not be needed for a turbo upgrade either.
Then you had better be ready to weld up a tubular O2 housing replacement and flange that mates to the downpipe ($$$$) or are you just looking for a whole new custom exhaust ($$$$$$$$$$)? No, the T28 makes that easier, too.

I hate to disagree, but...

You are talking about a 2.2 versus a 1.8L engine, not to mention, in their case, a much more restrictive exhaust manifold design (ever seen a turbo dodge mani?), and an equally poor O2 housing design.

If the manifold was the biggest restriction, they wouldn't notice the gain by going to a bigger turbine housing. I don't see why having 400cc extra displacement would make any difference here. We also have a pretty poor o2 housing design as well, the bends aren't terrible, but it gets really tight at one section. "The restriction is the actual .48 housing itself and clipping the blade or replacing the turbine wheel with a different unit has shown to have no effect on raising the amount of power the engine can produce." If it was the manifold that was holding them back, I would think that they would recommend replacing the manifold before replacing the turbo.

You're only considerig the turbine side, and besides, the advantage is spoolup time. Also, you don't need a T3 sixed turbine to make good power. There are other tricks you can do to the smaller turbine.

I am only considering the turbine side because that is what is going to limit your power. The t28 would spool up quicker than a .63 t3. It probably would not spool up much quicker than a .48 T3. The common tricks for smaller turbines are to clip the wheel and port the turbine housing. Porting the turbine housing is the same thing as moving to a larger A/R, and clipping the wheel just introduces a whole lot of lag for not a lot of gain.

Just ask guys running 16G's on DSM's versus the big T3/T4 conversions.

You're comparing compressor sizes instead of turbine sizes. The 16G runs a TD05H turbine housing, the T3/T4 hybrids run a T3 turbine housing. This means you can have a .48 T3 housing combined with the biggest of T04 compressors. It would be stupid, but it can be done. "Extreme Turbo says that the TD05H-7cm2 housing is equivalent to a 0.50 A/R." (http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm). Since I don't have my TD05 with me right now, I can't measure the housings to determine if it is comparable to a .48 T3 or not. The only advantage to running a really small turbine housing is response.

Well, now, it's funny you mention this, because I was at a local Z meet just a couple weeks ago, and a guy has a 240Z with an SR20DET swap in his, and guess what airflow meter it uses? The same housing (and I suspect, hotwire internals) as our CA18ET's. And he is making over 250hp, poorly tuned. I used to think like you do about our airflow meters, but now I think we have very possibly underestimated yet another aspect of the CA18ET platform.

I'm going off what the S-AFC tells me. 98% usage at 14psi at 6000rpm on my turbo. Bart's t25 at the same boost I think, yields 89% I believe he said. I believe that Bart is probably making about 180HP and I should be at about 200HP (I am measuring at the wheels). I suppose maybe our MAF sensors are really weird and go to higher than 5V, or maybe the guy in the Z is claiming a lot more HP than he is really making, or maybe you're wrong about the guy's MAF sensor.

Well to begin with here, since you are relying on T3 examples via turbo dodge, let me set the record straight... they have commonly pushed the stock T3 with its smaller exhaust housing into the 30 psi range on the stock inefficent intercooler no less. many of those cars were 12 sec wonders.

Yes, they often do go to 30psi or so, but with the .48 housing they won't make any extra HP. They probably make enough torque to pull down a house though. "270 hp is *about* the maximum the .48 housing will support with a SOHC and I have seen just under 300 hp with a DOHC with the wastegate welded shut." (http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_advanced.html). Keep in mind our head probably flows a bit better than the SOHC, but probably not as good as the DOHC. Either way, beneath 300HP.

Now, take into consideration that the T28 is NOT at all similar to the T25 or T2 in flow specs. They utilize the same flanging and exhaust inlet size but that is where the similarities end, as the T28's volume is close to or equivalent to a T3. The T28 flows like moderate T3, and the Forced Performance BigT28/28 flows like a hybrid T3/T4. Talk to both Turbonetics and Forced Performance and they will tell you all you ever wanted to know about T28 series vs. the old T3. The T28 has more potential and you sell it short, not to mention it's a DIRECT BOLT ON. ANd btw, it's exhaust turbine housing is NOT its weakness. weaker (thinner) centershafts and smaller/thinner bearings make the standard T3 look like a brute.

The t28 isn't similar to the t25 in terms of compressor flow specs since it has a t3 60 trim compressor (which it is comparable to). However, it would be similar to a t25 in terms of turbine flow since it has a t25 turbine. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/garrettt28.html
This particular t28 has a .86 housing and the one off the S14 has a .64 housing (http://www.nissansilvia.co.nz/faq.htm). Both are t25 turbine housings, just different A/Rs. The .86 would probably flow better than a .48 t3, but I am just assuming there.

Again not true, the T25 is the last thing you want to buy off of ebay, it;s stil too small and has seen lots of heat. And you can find T28's in ebay just as easilly as T25's and T2's. I bet there are at least two up for auction now. They seem to be between $350 and $500.

As of this writing, there are 3 T28s and 5 T25s on ebay. The T28s are $649.99 (used), $290 (used), 599.99 (used). The T25s are $108 (used with BOV), $36.50 (used, ported), $105 (used), $41 (used), $50 (used). T25s rarely go for more than $150 unless they are new. T28s rarely go for less than $200. T3s can be high or low. The .48 Chrysler and Saab turbos don't go for much (but in my opinion, one of those wouldn't be worth messing with). I paid $300 for my turbo, but I did a "buy it now" as well.

S14s, S15s (I think), and Pulsars came with T28s, so that would help the supply out. T25s came on a whole bunch of cars and can be taken from a 2g DSM if you are looking for a newish one from a junkyard here (however they have a different exhaust manifold flange). Since the t28s and t25s both have the same turbine housing, I would say they are both just as likely to have seen a lot of heat and over spinning, however if you can find a big A/R t28 or t25 for that matter, then it will not have seen as much heat.

Continued in Part Duex...

Part Duex...

The T28 has almost (not quite) the same dimetions as a T2 and T25, the most you would need would be a spacer so the compressor housing clears the exhaust manifold, otherwise this is the best turbo because of the packaging advange. It will also bolt up to your existing downpipe.

Then you had better be ready to weld up a tubular O2 housing replacement and flange that mates to the downpipe ($$$$) or are you just looking for a whole new custom exhaust ($$$$$$$$$$)? No, the T28 makes that easier, too.

Here is a picture of the stock T2 vs the T3. Keep in mind that this T3 has the EXACT same compressor housing as a T28.

http://www.one-equals-two.net/posted/turbo/turbocomp.jpg

I suppose it's up to you to determine if this is "almost" the same or not. I would say that it is not. If you use a spacer, it will move the compressor down to where it will clear the manifold, but may cause more issues with clearing the mount. My turbo has a T3 exhaust housing, so the placement would be a little different, but my compressor sits right where the mount used to be.

(I'm sure everyone is getting tired of this picture...)
http://www.one-equals-two.net/posted/turbo-small.jpg

Go look at the engine mount on your car, then compare. Ask yourself if you really think that you can clear something like a t28. Keep in mind that you still have to stick your intake pipe on the front of the turbo.

The cost of all the exhaust stuff needed for the T3 was not that expensive. We needed the internal wastegate assembly, which we got from a Saab ($15 from ebay I believe). Then a pipe with a similar diameter ($free, as it was laying in a pile of junk in the corner. O2 sensor bung, ($20 shipped from Summit). $10 for the machine shop to weld everything up nice. Also, a pre-bent 90 degree bend ($30). I just cut off my old exhaust, but we could have connected to it. Total price of downpipe and other misc stuff, $75. Our bender couldn't do a tight 90 degree, but you have access to one that can, then you can knock $30 off that price. If you don't want an o2 sensor, then knock another $20 off the price (but expect about 20-22mpg, mine is broken and that's what I get).

Also, some numbers on the Forced Performance big t28, 37 lb/min (http://devnulled.com/archives/2004/01/flow_and_hp_ratings_for_popular_dsm_turbos.php). As I've said in other posts, I would really rather see a compressor map than a max flow number, but most companies that sell their own turbo design guard those pretty close (since they are mostly just re-branded turbos from other manufactuers). The same site shows a regular t28 as flowing 34lb/min. This would lead you to believe that the FP BIG T28 can, at a maximum, flow enough air for about 30 more HP, assuming of course that the engine can use it (which sounds a whole lot like the Super 60 wheel). Also, it costs $825 and has a mitsu exhaust housing (although I'm sure they could change that for an additional charge). So, assuming my $75 downpipe setup is $$$$ ($18.75 per dollar sign), then this turbo would be 44 dollar signs. That's a whole lot of dollar signs. Let's see, for my complete setup it was:
$300 for the turbo = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (16 $s)
$100 for metals and fittings = $$$$$ (5 $s)
$75 for downpipe = $$$$ (4 $s)
$100 for gaskets and misc = $$$$$ (5 $s)
$275 for S-AFC II (not needed) = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (15 $s)
Total = about $850. That's almost $$ more than the FP Big T28, and since the FP t28 would still be limited by the MAF sensor without an upgrade to it, the performace would be the same (except since I have fuel tuning, my setup would make more power).

This is why I would recommend a t25 or a t3. The setup for a t25 would be about $150 or less for the turbo and it would bolt up. You will be able to feel the difference this turbo would make, just ask Bart. Or, if you are looking to expand, go with a T3. For the money you will pay, you can't beat the results, and once you think the engine is capable of more power, just stick a T04 compressor on the front of it. I sell the t28 short because I don't think it's a great value. I think it would rock on an OEM car, since it would have good response, good performance and when buying turbos new, the price difference wouldn't be as much. But if you are looking to go to something more powerful, then it becomes pointless. I do believe it would be good for 250hp though. The T3 should be good for just a bit more than that due to the less restrictive housing.

I would like to thank everybody who helped me out on this, I've decided that I will either go with the t25 or (this is more likely) a twin t2 setup. The twin turbo setup will be a lot cheaper as I'me getting the whole engine with fuel injection and turbo for 500 bucks and with a little creativity and some head work (the cars and mine) it shouldn't be a problem. With a lot of work (and a bit of luck) I should have a twin turbo s12 or at least one woth a t25. I'de much rather have the twin turbo because of cost and the fact I can say "yeah, I got a twin turbo s12 silvia, bwahaha"