Pondering a CA20E build up

Well, the wheels are turning again, and since it'll be 90 days before I can get the title anyway, I'm trying to have it in running perfect before I put tags and stuff on it. Now I know the CA20's have weak cast rods, so while looking through Pro-sis (a program that lists all internal dimensions for machine shops like ours), and the Mitsu 4G63 has the same size crank journal and it's only .060 longer than the Nissan rod. And guess what else, the bore size is only .015 bigger than the CA20E...
:devil:

But don't get your hopes up too quick. The Mitsu compression height is 1.378 compared to the CA20's 1.168, so the piston would be sticking up about .210. :rofl: Another problem is the Mitsu has a 21mm pin, the CA is a 20mm pin. So, custom pistons would be in order with the 4G rods, but I say I'd rather have custom pistons made than custom rods... lol

Only thing I have to check is the width of the 4G rod, anybody got one?

I'll keep doing some more research as I get the time, and I'll post the results up here. I really would like to build the CA up, just because I think it would be a challenge, and it would definetly be something out of the ordinary...

Oooooooooh mama. I think I just found my setup....

The 4G63 w/ a 4G64 stroker crankshaft has a bore of 85.0mm and a compression height of 1.130, which would almost make up for the rods that are .060 longer... Good god I think I'm on to something. I really need to find info on the rod widths, and this might just freakin work...

:devil:

This sounds promising, keep us posted...8)

Have you seen a ca20e with the head off? The cylinder walls are already paper thin as it is. Even overboring it only 15 over might overlap cylinders.

Why do you want the 4G63 crank? It's a strong piece, but it won't make you any faster. The amount of work involved in actually getting it to function would begin to be very redundant.

You want a 4G63? Buy one, get a 5 spd out of a mighty max pickup and have a custom driveshaft made.

If you want to build up a CA20E get those Pauter billet rods that Alex put in his CA20ET. Although it would probably cost a lot more for those than say the 4G63 rods or what such.

$743 and I dont think you will have to wait 3 months like I did. Just a thought. PM me if you need details on them.

I don't want the 4G63 crank, I want the 4G rods and pistons. The CA20 rods are weak castings, same with the pistons. 4G stuff is readily available and CHEAP. I think the crank in the CA is forged, so it'll hold up fine. As far as boring it out, I seriously doubt that .015 will be too much. I will check up on that though. I don't think I've ever seen a block that won't take .030...

Thanks for the input, if I can get these 4G rods to work, I'm definetly going to go that route. $743 is a little too steep for me, and then you'd have to get pistons made too unless you want to go with cast pistons. With this setup I'd have an all forged bottom end.

Oh, and as far as the electronics go, it's looking like if I go into it this far, I'm going with a standalone unit. Not sure on the manifold yet, but I'm at the least going with a T3.

I know you can drop in a 4G63 into a RWD, already looked into that for another car of mine. If I'm gonna do that though, I'd get the CA18DET instead. I was just toying with the idea of building the crap out of the Ca20E with all off the shelf components and a little bit of ingenuity... :rofl:

lets keep topics on topic guys, if you want to discuss these new parts more, start a new thread.

As far as using mitsu rods, etc they are pretty cheap. Eagle rods are about $400 for the set for billet pieces. For the slugs we can just use a custom job from ross or JE, etc. I am sure after someone designs a piston to accept a mitsu rod and create a CR of 9:1 we will be in buisness. A custom set of pistons (prices would drop after the first person used them I imagine) would be cheaper than rods, although pauter makes a killer rod. Eagle's units are not too bad though, and because they are 4g63 they can be had pretty cheap.

My vote would be to continue with this, seems like this might actually be a solid way to use a cross-brand rod in order to save some scratch. Good find.

First of all, I have seen plenty of CA20's before, so I know what they look like. Now take some time and think about the fact that boring it out .015 is only taking .007 off of each side of the cylinder wall. A piece of standard computer printer paper is .003. I've never heard anyone say that you can't bore these blocks out, but when I pull the motor, I'll get it sonic checked and see for sure... :lol:

But, even if custom pistons are in order, it's doable. The only question remaining is on the width of the rods. If the Mitsu rods are a little wider, then that's no problem, I can grind the crank to accept a wider rod (as long as it's not something crazy like .100 wider or something). But if the Mitsu rod is narrower, then we have a problem.

And Alex, that looks like some awesome stuff there! Definetly keep us posted on it! But I thought you were selling your car... :confused:

Just can't get rid of it can you? :D

Just found out B18 Honda rods have the same crank journal size too, but they're almost a half inch shorter... :disgust:

And, the Mitsu pistons with standard bore are actually .020 larger, not .015 as I originally stated. But, I'm still of the opinion that this block can be bored with no problems...

Sorry for the multiple posts, I guess I'm just getting a little too excited over this. Found the rod width for the 4G63: 92 and earlier is 1.117". 93-94 is 1.038". The CA20E: .968" That means that the 4G rod is only .070 wider! That can definetly be taken care of by a qualified crank grinder! Whooo hoooo!!!! As soon as I get caught up here at the shop, the CA20's getting pulled out...

:headbang: :banger: :headbang: :banger:

Joel, thats some awesome news man. Big rods can be had for fairly cheap, but I still think aftermarket 4g63 rods would be the way to go (if it was me). You need to keep us posted on the mitsu CA20E build-up, I personally would use the eagle 4g63 rods and a custom piston if I was doing a build up (CR 9:1 for boost, 11:1 if I wanted to keep 2L N/A). I see this working if we use a custom piston, using the 4g63 piston may be the downfall. The next step may be to price out a custom piston and try to deciede if it would be worth the effort (I personally would use Ross, Diamond, or JE).

Keep up the research, this could be quite the advancement for CA20E / T motor builds in the future.

EDIT: I am splitting this post to keep it on topic. DO NOT POST ANYMORE ABOUT THE AFTERMARKET PARTS IN THIS THREAD.

sounds good man. there are a few mitsu's in the yard here, so i could just open one up and do some test fitting hehe.

I'm trying to find out how strong the stock Mitsu rods would be with some ARP rod bolts. But I can get a set of Eagle H-Beams for $400. (Actually cheaper, but that's retail price. Ah, the advantages of wholesale parts :laugh: )

So you're saying I should get custom pistons because of the block not being able to be bored? Wiseco makes a piston that would fit it, although it's .020 bigger, and .020 taller. I'm not worried about it being taller, I have access to a mill and lathe if modifications are needed... :evillaug:

I'm not too sure about the block not being able to be bored, why would they make oversize pistons for it if it wasn't possible? Like I said, when I get mine out and tore down, I'll get it sonic checked and see how much thickness we really have in there. I don't see the point in putting a motor back together without at least getting the cylinders back true. And most of the time with a high-mileage motor, even if there's not a lot of wear, my experience says that they're usually ovalled (or egg-shaped) about .005-.006. So if I do custom pistons, I'd still want to at least go .010 over...

I agree with all your points joel, but let me touch on all of them one by one...

as far as the limits of mitsu rods, it depends on which rods you use. "Big" 1g rods (90-92 6-bolt cars) are usually rated at around 550hp with forged pistons.

I can get eagle's for under $400 too, but I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade. (although RRE has them for $380)

I agree with you about the boring, I usually bore .010 just to bring the cylinder walls back to true. I would think that we could pull off the 020 bore but the sonic testing would prove that.

as far as decking the pistons 020, remeber that CA20E pistons have valve reliefs stock as well, so you will need to machine those as well. I am just trying to be the devil's advocate and try to point out all possible problems before you jump in.

There are several nice 4g63 pistons to be had, so hopefully we can make some sort of frankenstein motor and run with it.

sounds promising. just keep up the adding and calculations and im sure you should be fine. funny how soo many people use the same size parts.

Another thing to find out.

The journals for the crank are the same size, but what about how wide they are. Yopu dont want them to be flopping around and whatnot causing failure anywhere down the road.

Head bolts....has anyone had any made or know where to get them for the ca20e. its ALWAYS better to have ARP's holding your head down.

arp does custom fasteners. We would want head studs not bolts, and I'm sure all it will take is someone to take it upon themselves to get in contact with ARP and we can get the studs made up.

studs...thats what I ment :lick: :hit:

guys, the ca20e crank is a good item, infact it is so good that Tomei use it in their CA18DET-2.0L stroker kit.

In regards to a 11.0:1 comp ratio.............is this engine for street use? cause if it is, get use to minimum 100octane (10.5:1 requires minimum 98octane on cold days) and on the hot days, add ya octane booster for 105octane (ish) or you will destroy a nice engine in no time due to pinging. i am building a CA18DE atmo engine for a stage 3 output of 150kw at the wheels (200HP)......and alot of ma mates cars (engines i have help build) are running 10.5, 11, and 11.5 comp ratios and they hate the warm days, on a 17degree day, a 20valve 4AGE (10.5:1 comp) was pinging on the dyno, that was running 98 octane, and octane booster (made it about 103oct).........we switched to C16 race fuel and no pinging! But most ppl cant afford to run C16 all day everyday!

so what eva pistons you choose, do measure the combustion chamber cc with the new slugs, and work out the static compression correctly, because in highly strung engines, there's no room for pinging.

I'm not planning on running 11:1. I'm planning on running 9.0:1 or lower. I'm going turbo with this puppy... :evillaug: Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the CA20 crank, that puts my mind at ease a bit...

As far as the rod widths, that's what I was saying earlier, the Mitsu rods are about .070 wider than the Nissan rod, which can be taken care of by a good crank grinder widening the rod journal. Not a real difficult procedure for a good crank grinder.

I do plan on contacting ARP and getting some head and main studs. Who knows, they might have some off the shelf stuff that'll fit too! I'm not sure if they make studs for the CA18DET, but they might fit. These are the type of things I'm gonna have to check once I get the motor out and tore down.

I'm not sure if I'm actually gonna have to cut any off the piston tops, but yeah, I know there's a possiblity of having to cut in valve reliefs. I'm not sure what the deck height setting is on the CA20's, but it might just happen that I won't have to cut any off. Just have to do plenty of measuring when I get it tore down.

I'm not really afraid of having to do any machine work though, because that's kind of the point of building this motor. I want to build a max effort import motor to show off what our machine shop can do. I'm more ready than ever to get started on this, but right now I have to get caught up with everything else... :banger:

if you want max effort joel you may want to use the eagle rods and an aftermarket piston in the motor. (I have to admit...I am getting pretty excited about the idea myself) Although like I said before, dsm guys usually quote that 2g pistons and 1g "big" rods are good to around 550 hp (not sure if its fwhp or rwhp)

as far as CR goes, 11:1 is pretty common in the late-model v8 world (I am talking naturally aspirated here) and we only run 94 oct. It seems everyone has a different opinion of what the highest "safe" CR is. To each their own. But because this is a turbo motor, 9:1 is my bet, no question.

While we are talking about using ARP hardware, do you want to consider ARP rod bolts?

Ok, the bottom end is starting to get sorted. Now IIRC there is a copper headgasket that can be used (although I'd rather have a hybrid material like a COMETC) but I'll do some digging and see what I can come up with.

I guess I'll hold my horses and just concentrate on the short block at this point, but I would suggest the colt ca18et aggressive cam (its a regrind...I still want to research to see if possibly we can use some other cam and/or cam gear)

As far as headwork goes, well you know how that goes.

Anyway, more on that down the road. At this point, I am going to try to help design a rock solid short block.

Awesome! I really appreciate all your help so far! Yeah, I was gonna go with ARP rod bolts, but if I go with the Eagle rods, then they already come with ARP capscrews. I was kinda wondering about a head gasket, but I figured I'd leave that for later... :bomb:

I haven't researched much in the cam department. The only cam I've ever run in a CA20 is the Euro cam from Nismo. It seemed pretty mild. IIRC, it was the stock lift, just more duration.

Oh, and on the 11:1 issue, yeah 11:1 is pretty common for both 4 bangers and V8s, as long as you have a well designed combustion chamber and good quench properties. You might have to step the timing back a couple degrees, but I know of all kinds of Hondas running around here with JDM 11.5:1 Civic type-R and B18C5's.

ok joel, some more info for you to chew on

http://www.club-s12.org/board/showthread.php?t=6459

which came from the below thread
http://www.club-s12.org/board/showthread.php?t=6375

so it looks like there is some parts out there to build around. The missing link really are the rods and hardware. I'm guessing with the variable CR in the piston we could find a piston to fit (although the longer rod would mean that the CR would be off). May want to PM Mr.200 and discuss contact info with the vendor in order to discuss it with him.

as far as cams go, the euro cam isn't very wild. Colt apparently is working on something:
http://www.club-s12.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5745

sounds like colt can do a new cam (instead of a re-grind) and your max-effort build sounds like a perfect canidate for the big cam (no specs yet unfortionatly)

Anyway, just thought I should give you some more to think about.

Hmm ...

I can also get motor parts (USDM) for silly cheap. While pondering my options,
$600 for a reman ca18et, $680 for a ca18de.

I can get decent pistons made too, not for much $$.

It would be nice to know if/what other pistons would fit the 4G63 rods. Wasn't there a smaller displacement version of this motor prior to the Eclipse/Talon days? IIRC there was in the Conquest/Starion.

I don't want to have to have a 1.8 hogged out that far just to run. I might be able to get something that will fit.

Ah crap ... what's the diff between ca20e and ca18et cranks? Will it affect this marvel?

Hmm ...

I can also get motor parts (USDM) for silly cheap. While pondering my options,
$600 for a reman ca18et, $680 for a ca18de.

I can get decent pistons made too, not for much $$.

It would be nice to know if/what other pistons would fit the 4G63 rods. Wasn't there a smaller displacement version of this motor prior to the Eclipse/Talon days? IIRC there was in the Conquest/Starion.

I don't want to have to have a 1.8 hogged out that far just to run. I might be able to get something that will fit.

Ah crap ... what's the diff between ca20e and ca18et cranks? Will it affect this marvel?
When the new motor goes in mine, we could tear apart the CA to see...aside from that I think they are the same, or at least the same dia....

The CA18 has a shorter stroke, so they're totally different. But the rod journals are the same size, so a Mitsu rod would work, but I don't think you'd find an off the shelf piston for it.

Don't have time to read the links tonight, it's time to go home!!! Got the motor pulled out today though, so I'll post up on it tomorrow. Thanks for all the help guys!!!

I don't want to have to have a 1.8 hogged out that far just to run. I might be able to get something that will fit.

Well shoot, if this CA20 build up goes as planned, all you CA18 guys can just find old CA20 short blocks and build them up, and put your CA18 heads, intake and stuff on it! :twisted:

The Honda rods are the same journal too, but from what I read their about .150 longer than stock CA18ET rods.

I read through all those posts, looks like some awesome stuff! Like I said, I got the motor out yesterday, but it'll probably be the end of the week before I get it tore down. Also, I know there used to be a CA18DE head sitting at my friend's shop, I'm sure he'd be happy to get rid of it... :twisted:

I don't know if I could make that work or not, but I might experiment a little bit with it. I know the DE runs off of gears, so I'd have to figure how to run a chain, tensioner, find a crank gear, and find a chain the right length. Anybody up for a CA20DET??? :laugh:

The cranks are different because the blocks are different. The ca20e block is taller.

I don't know if the ca20e crank is really that good of a piece. I think the Tomei kit might use a crank ground to the same dimensions, but I would be pretty surprised if the crank is remotely the same.

A few people have already tried the DE head on E block combo. I can't remember exactly what the problem was ... something about needing a crank pulley CNCed and trying to match up a belt.

The cranks are different because the blocks are different. The ca20e block is taller.

I don't know if the ca20e crank is really that good of a piece. I think the Tomei kit might use a crank ground to the same dimensions, but I would be pretty surprised if the crank is remotely the same.

A few people have already tried the DE head on E block combo. I can't remember exactly what the problem was ... something about needing a crank pulley CNCed and trying to match up a belt.
Yah there was the cracnk pulley problem, but I also thought there was a problem with the coolant journals, and actually bolting the head to the block (something to do with the studs lining up). I think there are a few subtle differences that prevent the head from bolting to the block

Hmmmm.... Well I'll pick it up anyway just to check it out a little closer. But if it doesn't work, oh well, no harm done! I kinda figured I would need to get a pulley made, but I'm still not sure on the chain and tensioner. Does the DE use a chain or belt? I heard someone say it uses a chain...

As far as the strength of the CA20 crank goes, I'm pretty sure it's forged, but I'll know for sure in a few days. If it's forged, it oughta be good to about 400 hp. I seriously doubt I'll be making more than 400hp... :wink:

And according to my info, the CA20 crank would physically bolt into the CA18 block, but the stroke is 3.465 vs. 3.307 for the CA18. That's why the block is taller, to accomodate for the longer stroke...

hmm ... well, the ca20e also uses longer rods ...

ca18et and ca20e cranks are different, this much we know.

Now, Nissan specifies 1 crank for the ca18et, but 3 for the ca20e

All 200sx applications ... why were there 3 different cranks?

#12201 - D1790 10/83 - 04/85
#12201 - D1785 04/85 -
#12201 - 57E80 04/85 -

Those are all for the ca20e

What we (we meaning the turbo guys) should find out is what the Tomei kit uses as con rods for the ca20e stroker kit.

http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/e048_CA20_enginekit.html

there's the link to the ca20det stroker kit for the ca18det

It says it uses a standard con rod, but somehow it uses an 84 mm piston instead of the "standard" 86mm

something must be getting lost in the translation, because the standard bore is 83mm not 84
ca20e is 84.5

so I'm guessing the Tomei pistons are shorter, but the same bore as ca18det to make up for the extra stroke.

Bore(mm)

f84.0 STD 86.0

Stroke(mm)

88.0 STD 83.6

Displacement(cc)

1950 STD 1809

Piston crown capacity(cc)

8.3

I guess that didn't really clear anything up at all did it?

:laugh: Maybe their running 2mm of piston clearance... :laugh:

Yeah, must be a typo or something. Yeah, the pistons probably just have a shorter compression height, just like most of the V8 Stroker kits.

So, it still doesn't say on there much about the crankshaft. Maybe their new forged pieces? It looks forged anyway, not sure if it's a Nissan piece or a Tomei piece though. I guess I should contact them. If it is significantly stronger than a stock CA20 crank, I wonder how much it costs, and most of all, how much it would be to ship it to the US.

aebs is the us distributor. http://www.aebsracing.com/main.pl i tired contacting them about some info a few months ago and they were like "well why don't you just buy our products instead"

Yeah, I e-mailed aebs yesterday, no response yet, but I'll let you know when I get one...

Well, I'm about to tear the motor down today, and I'm gonna start a new thread before this one gets to cluttered. I'll let you know what I find later this afternoon...