not a newb Suspension question

would a 5x8 900lbs (blue coil) would be good for a track/lapping setup ?

if not what would be the best rear setup

actually i have a tein Hr strut and im going to by a day motorsports perch

just questionning me on the spring

Dom

if my conversion is right ...thats 14.4 give or take KG/mm
isnt that over kill? the stock is 2.4kg/mm. Henry is in that ball park...but his car is like 1.5 inches off the ground.

i was only planing 6.8kg  up front and 8.6 in the back,while cutting ride height in half...but i am not gonna track it. PLus im broke and never got around to the suspension...or anything else other than paint...

SC S12 on 02:43:16 PM / 23-Oct-10if my conversion is right ...thats 14.4 give or take KG/mm
isnt that over kill? the stock is 2.4kg/mm. Henry is in that ball park...but his car is like 1.5 inches off the ground.

i was only planing 6.8kg  up front and 8.6 in the back,while cutting ride height in half...but i am not gonna track it. PLus im broke and never got around to the suspension...or anything else other than paint...

if i remember correctly henry is like 10 or 11k....the synopsis of s12 owners seems to think that we need elephant girth capable springs in the back because of the rear trailing arm suspension...but i am confused still as to why?

I also love now how we have to specify if our questions in the suspension section are newb or not...hahaha.

When I slam my car I will probably go into the 12kg range. I love a stiff back end. Retardedly stiff. But you should get all the other suspension components upgraded first like z31 rear sway bars and fab up a rear strut tower bar that is actually effective.

Maxpow on 05:55:17 PM / 23-Oct-10But you should get all the other suspension components upgraded first like z31 rear sway bars and fab up a rear strut tower bar that is actually effective.

so for a DD track car the best would be like 9kg so in lbs wich one does it mean in blue coil website http://www.pagedezigner.com/bluecoil/2009/front.htm

thx alot guys btw

IIRC Iggy was running the 900lb blue coil springs out back for drifting. That may be a little too stiff for grip driving though.

stupidly stiff...i think you guys go overboard on your spring rates...hahaha.

for drifting i just think guys want 900lbs because it has been tested and went great.

i just want to give some spec for Grip, Drift, Street, Drag      Beginner that just want to take a look like Hummmm.... yeah i wanna do some drift so ... what rear spring do i need!    i know that everyone opinion is different we don't have the same felling on track depending on wich way we drive...  anyway!  So i think i can tell that it has been tested before and for drifting 900lbs is good

Drift: 900lbs
Grip:  ??
Drag: ??
Street: ??

If you have more experience plz complete... (reply the list) If you use prothane kit and coilover(brand) i think it would be good to add it with the spec of spring you are using

i am just running canuck lowering springs with kyb agx adjustable shocks...i autox and touge the car...its tuned to oversteer...it can oversteer even more if i turn the shocks up a notch or two. A lot of people say the canucks are toooo soft...but i have had a couple of people who autox drive my car on the autox course and they said it was good...eventually i want to run coilovers...but this set up is cheap...when i do run coilovers i will prolly not run to stiff a spring unless someone can tell me why the trailing arm design really needs 15k springs...and a good reason...haha. I feel so old...

im ganna run either 8-9k in the rear, i dun care what anyone says.

@ sam, softer spring rates are good for autox and higher powered drift cars, but until your hitting like 400hp in a drift car stupid stiff is a pretty good way to go.

Ya know... I should say something about all of this, but for once I'll actually refrain...
and Sam, 15k is just plain insane for our car. Regardless of SRA or IRS

15k was an exaggeration, i was trying to make a point about how insanely high all of your guys freaking spring rates are! What are you running again jay?

It's not the springs that make the suspension, it's the damper rates complimented by the springs.

7kg/mm in front, 6kg/mm in rear
Or in american version
392 lbs/in front, 336 lb/in rear
1lb preload in front, 2 lb preload in rear (Or in other words, only enough to keep them seated)
The moment that suspension went on, the S12 was too stiff for DD... Track car that can see the streets when I'm feeling masochistic

For those who don't know, the conversion rate is 1k/mm = 56 lbs/in
(15k springs is 840 lbs/in)

and people think 6k is too soft....

there is no weight in the back of the notch and it steps out just fine all the time...if its wet out multiply normal oversteer reaction by ten.

Heh, stiffer up front is a bad way to go on the S12. Tongue
I always figured 250lb up front and 275LB out back would be about ideal, but no way the stock shocks will handle that.

900LB, you might as well just stick a piece of wood back there for a spring.

Edit:
I should say 250/275 for a decently powered daily driver.

yea... but cars act differently when they are sideways.

Before Drifting, driving cars sideways was an episode of The Twilight Zone.

On my SE I am running Stance S13 coilovers on the front with an 8k (450lbs)spring , and agx mustang shocks in the rear with adjustable spring perches and 9k (500lbs) springs...I feel that this setup is very comfortable actually...damping is everything, I never thought I could have such a high spring rate, and such good comfort at the same time!

The reason for running a higher rear rate on a semi-trailing arm suspension is that by limiting the travel, and stiffening the rear vertical movement, you somewhat get around the large camber and toe change problems that this design inherently displays.

In a sense, the stiffer you make the rear suspension, the better it works (to a point)...I estimate that an 800 lbs spring setup for the rear would be as stiff as one would EVER want to go for a full on track only car...higher than that and you'd start running into problems with even small road surface imperfections at higher speeds without downforce adding aero components.

Taris Blue on 05:18:23 AM / 24-Oct-10On my SE I am running Stance S13 coilovers on the front with an 8k (450lbs)spring , and agx mustang shocks in the rear with adjustable spring perches and 9k (500lbs) springs...I feel that this setup is very comfortable actually...damping is everything, I never thought I could have such a high spring rate, and such good comfort at the same time!

The reason for running a higher rear rate on a semi-trailing arm suspension is that by limiting the travel, and stiffening the rear vertical movement, you somewhat get around the large camber and toe change problems that this design inherently displays.

In a sense, the stiffer you make the rear suspension, the better it works (to a point)...I estimate that an 800 lbs spring setup for the rear would be as stiff as one would EVER want to go for a full on track only car...higher than that and you'd start running into problems with even small road surface imperfections at higher speeds without downforce adding aero components.

vegasS12 on 06:13:03 PM / 23-Oct-10the Z31 rear sway bars bolt rite up?

Taris Blue on 05:18:23 AM / 24-Oct-10The reason for running a higher rear rate on a semi-trailing arm suspension is that by limiting the travel, and stiffening the rear vertical movement, you somewhat get around the large camber and toe change problems that this design inherently displays.

Unleashedrb200sx on 01:22:45 AM / 24-Oct-10for drifting i just think guys want 900lbs because it has been tested and went great.

i just want to give some spec for Grip, Drift, Street, Drag      Beginner that just want to take a look like Hummmm.... yeah i wanna do some drift so ... what rear spring do i need!    i know that everyone opinion is different we don't have the same felling on track depending on wich way we drive...  anyway!  So i think i can tell that it has been tested before and for drifting 900lbs is good

Drift: 900lbs
Grip:  ??
Drag: ??
Street: ??

If you have more experience plz complete... (reply the list) If you use prothane kit and coilover(brand) i think it would be good to add it with the spec of spring you are using

Incorrect.
The optimal drift setup, is an optimal grip setup Wink
Drifters just have to overcome weight/balance/low power/tire width/driver with a stiffer suspension in key areas. The only difference that "should" happen is technique.

Drag is in it's own little world though.

Arro on 07:04:21 AM / 24-Oct-10
Also, you probably DO NOT want to make the rear stiff until you get grippy tires first.

Anyways, I am not certain if the Z31 sway bar works in our cars, while some of the rear components are the same between the S12 and the Z31, not all components are. We know for certain that the Z31 bushings work with our rear setups, but the only people who have upgraded rear swaybars that I am aware of were using (rare) Adco swaybars for the S12. What is more, those aren't people with legitimate or any real competitive track experience.

Thx Arro as for myself i need a track/lapping setup that work great ... but i was asking for different setup drift, drag, street for the beginner that would like to know wich spring rate is good! nuff said ..   deezus i'm not interrested in drifting cuz in my hometown (Montreal, Quebec) s12 are pretty rare and we're having problem to find parts (we are like 4 or 5 guys in all the province) .. so due to the issue that every drifter have hit a wall once For myself i don't want my s12 to be a smash car i want it as clean as possible anyway.... i know that it would happen in a grip track but for myself it more happen on a drift track ok...

so here's the problem we have Tongue there is only one guys that someone agree with and it taris blue take a look at is setup and tell me what you think

here's the other problem depending on the damper i know but its not everyone that agree that 900lbs for drifting is good

so here where we are

just copy paste this and show us your setup it would be awesome if someone post a grip setup but we need some for every of them

Drift: ??
Grip: ??
Drag: ??
Street: ??

Dom

Jay on 08:30:52 AM / 24-Oct-10Incorrect.

PM bluke1 or that guy from the Ukraine about grip setups

dangina on 03:34:46 PM / 23-Oct-10-14 kg is way overkill for these cars, 10kg is probably the max you wanna go as our cars aren't over the 3000 lbs range
-and sc s12 your suppose to put the 8 kg in front and 6kg in the rear as most of the weight of the car is up front - most of us AE86 guys run this setup

Deezus on 04:49:07 PM / 24-Oct-10me?

I'm sorry but ive seen plenty of successful setups where sways were better left oem or removed completely.

alright lol, Im not taking just about spring rates and dampening, im talkin about toe, camber, caster, etc on front and rear.

Idk much about tuning for grip driving, but im guessing youd probably run more neg camber up front on a drift car than you would on a grip car.

thx Navy_Mech2 i pm bluke1 for detail about grip setup

actually, depending on your type of grip driving your going to want some camber...obviously if your turning a lot and all the time and you arent going very fast or stopping a lot you want more negative camber. (think autox.)

If your doing a lot of stretches of long straights with really hard braking zones you might want to take some negative camber away. Having a lot of negative camber effects your braking performance in the front because in a straight line you have less contact patch. Consequently when your turning all the time and you have a lot of negative camber you have more contact patch while the tire is turned.

I have seen autox fb rx7 owners remove their rear sway bars...so the axle will move more...but they are sra. I think ae86 owners do the same thing.

sam31183 on 02:26:28 AM / 25-Oct-10If your doing a lot of stretches of long straights with really hard braking zones you might want to take some negative camber away. Having a lot of negative camber effects your braking performance in the front because in a straight line you have less contact patch.

henry uses powered by max coilovers which are 10/8, so he's using a 450lb spring in the rear which is as closely equivalent to 8kg as you can get.

8/6 is definitely ideal

Henry very rarely drives his car on the streets and it's far to stiff for daily driving.  On my S12 I run 7kg up front and 5kg in back and it's still to stiff in my opinion.  I drift a lot, it's quite nice for drifting, but for daily driving it's very painful.  I make like 200 hp though with my ca18det so you might want a higher rate in the back if your making less power.  If I ever switch rates I think I'm gonna switch to something closer to 5kg front 4.5kg back.

i haven't been on here enough lately, but i hope to remedy that. good topic, thanks for making me aware of it!   
    my s12 is setup according to the scca itb rules. i am running 500# springs in the front with custom coilovers on the stock strut housing, 450# springs in the rear on an adjustable spring perch in the stock location. the front shocks are koni strut inserts part #8610-1437. the rear shocks are koni part #8210-1159 (from a porshe 911). for toe i run the fronts either at 0 or 1/16 toe out. rear toe is 0. stock front swaybar with an adjustable rear, which i run on a stiffer setting. the car is faster with sleight oversteer on the tracks i have run.
      remember, when you track a car some settings that work great on one track aren't ideal for a different one. get a good base setup and you can make adjustments from there. too stiff a spring causes you to lose grip over bumps, curbs, etc. apex curbing is part of the racing surface IMHO,( just ask the F1 guys) if you are too stiff then it will upset your car and cause problems.
     i think this is enough typing for now, if you have any other questions or things you would like to discuss, post away....