Shuts Off When Warmed Up

First off I want to say nice forum; I found a lot of useful information already. Please excuse me if my questions are rather obvious to you, I have absolutely no experience with these vehicles.

Here is the story:

A friend of mine bought an 86 200sx auto notch back in 2001. He drove the car up until 2002 when it developed an issue: The car would start and run perfectly, but with in 10 min or so (once the car had heated up) it would shut off abruptly. He was unable to start the car until he waited 45 min or so for the engine to cool down. Being he had another vehicle, rather than fix the problem he just parked the 200sx in a climate controlled garage, under a cover in mid 2002. Unfortunately he did not take proper measures to store the car; it was parked with the battery connected, tires on the ground, and with a ½ tank of gas.

So that brings me to now, 6 years later. I was given the offer of purchasing this car for $250. It has 113k on it. The interior is beautiful, as well as the exterior; near perfect paint,no signs of rust, or any body damage what so ever. The bad being it still has the problem for which it was parked in addition to new ones due to it sitting: 2 rotted and leaking brake hoses, 4 flat and rotted tires, rotted belts and hoses, dead battery, not to mention what ever damage the fuel caused by sitting in the system and other un noticeable problems.

I was considering purchasing this car for the sole purpose of owning a nice, clean original weekend driver. I don't want to put a large sum of money into this vehicle, but I do understand more than the purchase price will have to be spent replacing the tires, belts, hoses, brake lines, and fixing the other issues.

Based on monetary value, and the amount of time involved, do you think it would be a worthwhile deal? I do plan on performing the work myself…      

Why do you think it shuts off when warmed up? How would you go about fixing this problem?

If I do go ahead with this, I planed on draining out all of the fuel, flushing out the lines and tank, replacing the fuel filter and filling the car back up. Then moving on to changing the oil, removing the spark plugs and dripping a small amount of oil in there, letting it sit and turning the engine over by hand a few revolutions. Finally, I would replace the battery, clean all wire contacts, check other fluids and try to start it. Do you have any other suggestions in bringing this car back to life for the first time?  

Thanks in advance,
Chris

Mine was randomly shutting down and was refusing to start sometimes 2 years ago. The ECU was in trouble.
next time you run and it stop, kick the ecu with your feet while you still got some speed and running on compression.. mine would start back.

From memory, the ECU costed my 350$ with the core price!

i had the same problem with an m30, advance ur ignition all the way, should solve it

bigjerMine was randomly shutting down and was refusing to start sometimes 2 years ago. The ECU was in trouble.
next time you run and it stop, kick the ecu with your feet while you still got some speed and running on compression.. mine would start back.

From memory, the ECU costed my 350$ with the core price!

just replace the fuel filter & see what happens,

inspect the fuel pump wiring which is under the floor mat just to the right of your soare tire.

Thank you for the fast responses, it's nice to see a board that moves pretty quickly. So you don't think it's a major issue to be concerned of, but rather just a minor timing adjustment, or a loose wire/ internal connection on the ecu's PCB ? Any other suggestions? As far as attempting to fire this thing up for the first time is 6 years, you think ill be all right with proper fluid levels, a new filter and some fresh gas? Any maintenance nightmares I need to be aware of? I.E interference engine and timing belts prone to snapping, seals that always go, etc…  

Thanks again,

Chris

since everyone seems to forget this.... But check the codes on the ecu

Am I able to do this by blinking a dash light to signify codes or something to that effect? Is there a how to, and a list of that the codes are floating a found? I know its an obd I car, but some of  the OBD I cars have the obd II style ports so I could just barrow a scanner… or is it some other proprietary port?

negative our cars are not obd1 I don't belive they are obd anything iirc but the way you check the codes is pull the ecu out it's above the kick panel on the driverside floor right where your left foot sits there's a tiny screw on the side of the ecu with 2 lights right above it put the car to the on position without starting it then turn the screw to diagnostic mode it'll have an arrow pointing which way to turn it you will see the lights blink the red one is 10's and the green one is ones (ex. red blinks twice and green blinks once then that's 21 ) as far as finding the codes just post them here in your thread and we can come up with the answer as I'm not sure if we have a code list on the site...

neat. I'm assuming ill have to get the car up and running long enough for the problem to occur, as the battery has been dead for at least 5 years, 6 months, I doubt anything is stored in memory.  Also what is the general consciences on the automatics in regards to reliability?

Thanks for the help,

Chris

actually just charge the battery and it'll tell you I've done it with mine plenty of times

likely a sensor problem.  if its a MK1.5, optical distributor highly suspect.  what is the color of the valve cover?

realize, besides tires, this will probably need a timing belt, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and probably 02 sensor.  A full tune-up should always be on the list.

it depends on how much you want to spend.  get an idea on a total amount, then add up cost of parts, registration, etc. and make your decision from there.

it sounds like a good car, I'd get it personally.

the code removal may be a bit more than sideways listed depending on the ecu (mid 86, things changed, and the ECU got more complicated/smarter)

my car has sat for some time, and it fired right up.  probably has not had fresh fuel in a good number of years.

if for some reason the injectors went bad during sitting- not that that is very common, but... they would cost about $200 for all four.

in terms of the problem, I would suspect these things, in somewhat of an order:

CAS (crank angle sensor, its part of the distributor)
oxygen sensor
coolant temp sensor
ecu
fuel pump (not common)
any other sensor/component that could be affected by heat- mass airflow meter (MAF), fuel pressure regulator, etc.

the pre-obd system these cars use is rather simple, so there isn't too much to go wrong, its just a matter of diagnosing and taking time with the problem.

let us know what happens!

Thank you for your insight. I can not recall if the valve cover is black, or silver. I will be going back to where the car is being stored some time early next week. Ill try to get it running, check the ecu for diagnostic codes and begin the diagnostic process. Fortunately, I am able to tinker with the car a while before I make a decision as to if I want to purchase it or not. My friend is in no hurry sell. Is there any way of testing the CAS? IE using a multi meter to pick up the change in voltage (or resistance?) while cranking the engine and comparing those values to known good values? If I can in fact do this, how would I go about it? Any other suggestions?

Thanks again,

Chris  

it depends on the distributor (what year) whether there is a procedure for testing it or not, the newer optical units there really isn't one.  What you really should do is download the FSM (factory service manual) from one of the stickies at the top of the general tech section and give it a good look-thru, if you can somehow take it with you that would be great as well.  The online version has only info for the earlier cars (black valve cover) which has a more traditional vacuum-advanced hall-sensor type distributor and simpler wiring/controls.

bigjernext time you run and it stop, kick the ecu with your feet while you still got some speed and running on compression.. mine would start back.

Thanks for the tips. I had a chance to go back and mess with the car a little, and here are the results.

It's a silver top with 112k, the plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and fuel filter were changed prior to being parked ( my friend thought that could be his issue, and it was not.
I replaced the battery with a good, fully charged unit, accessed the ecu, placed it in diagnostics mode, turned the key and I got this: both red and green LEDs blinking simultaneously: Blink pause blink blink pause blink blink blink and so on up to 5 blinks then the pattern starts over again. What does mean?

 I then checked all the fluids (all were fine and toped off) and tried to start the car. I could get it to turn over and run for 2 to 5 revolutions and it would die. I am assuming this is due to the 6 year old gas, so I unhooked the fuel line and cycled the key a number of times to pump the old fuel out of the tank and into another container. So that's where I am now. The next time I get a chance, I will fill the tank with a few gallons of fresh gas and see if I can get it running or not.

As I do have the silver top… do you think I should go ahead with the optical distributor as my first possible solution to this problem?  are there any other cars I can pull a optical distributor from? Or does it have to be a 200sx? (I am unsure if they put these motors in anything else) If I were to purchase new, what does one of these usually run?

I am now going to check out the digital shop manual(hopefully some of this info will be usefull to me as i have the late motor) and read up so I don't bother you guys/gals? With noob questions. Thanks again for the help, and if you have any other information or comments that could help me out, feel free to post up.

David BDUDE same shit happens to me,

yea what he said give it a good wack, i use the whole sidewall of my shoe, from the bottom the my ankle and i slap it up high down there like 3 times when my shit starts stuttering

works like a charm  

if its happening when the car is warmed up, It tells me its a heatsoak problem. I would suspect the Ign. Control Module, or in this case, the power transistor (i think thats what the ca20 used).

You need to remember, it takes 4 things (not just 3, lol) to make an engine Run. Spark, Air, Fuel, and compression. Clearly you have some sort of compression, and it usually gets better as the engine warms up, so you can assume its not that. Nor should it be air. the only thing that could STOP airflow when warm is a plugged convertor. doubtful, but still possible. when its getting ready to stall, check the exhaust pipe for airflow. this requires a little car experience, but you should be able to tell if its even close to normal.

the next two, Spark and Fuel can get tricky. Run the ECU codes first, as previously mentions. you need to find whats getting cut out, and then why.

the ECU may have been reset when you changed the battery, thus clearing the codes. let us know what happens with fresh gas.

I had the chance to get back to the car today for a little… I put 4gal of fresh gas in the tank, disconnected the fuel line from the top of the filter, placed the end into a clear jar, and cycled the key until fresh gas was seen. I then re connected the fuel line, put in a spare charged battery and cranked the car over. After about 3 tries at 6 sec each, the car turned over and began to sputter for about 2 sec. I then tried 4 more times until the car turned over again and chugged along at about 100-300RPM for about 5 seconds and died out. I then tried repeatedly to get the car to run again to no avail, finally the battery was out of juice and I gave up for the time being. I confirmed that the cat is free flowing and exhaust gasses are exiting the tail pipe. The VAM is not plugged and the flap is moving. I am getting fuel from the top of the fuel filter in the engine bay. This is leading me to think it is a spark issue, fuel injector issue, timing issue, or some other sensor or device causing my problem.

Any suggestions as to what you would do next?

Thanks again for all the help.

Chris

Any ideas?

I say you got weak spark. I would check if you got spark and check if they are in firing
order.

jays86sylviaI say you got weak spark. I would check if you got spark and check if they are in firing
order.

jays86sylviaI say you got weak spark. I would check if you got spark and check if they are in firing
order.

Easier way to check(for me anyways) is to crank the engine acouple of times then check your spark plugs if they are wet. You already eliminated the fuel so i would assume your distributor or one of your coils are bad. I never relied on ecu flashes so i wouldn't know about it. Check the timing belt if it flexes too. Hope this helps you gettin her on the road!

had the same problem before, just advance the ignition timing.

look at ur distributor, ther eis a screw holding it in place, lossen it and move it in, should do the trick.

2 bolt/screws... 10mm i think.. wrench worked best. I had an issue a few mnths back where the rotor had rubbed the insulation off a wire inside my distrib that had nudges outwards a hair.. (My cars Mk1 or mk1.5 I forget)

could it be an injector problem? I've heard of ppl breaking injector plugs when changin plugs.no wait, nvrmnd.. it was doin it before he changed those... hope they're NGK plugs and wires. just a thought.

Any chance of a mouse nest in the intake where it was stored?

My ECU has the codes list printed right on the back of it on a sticker... pretty sure they're also in the FSM someplace...

Been a while but I am back. I gave up on this car for almost a year then I started thinking about it the other day.... I am going for it. To cool of a little car to be sitting without attention.

 There was a mouse nest in the intake ironically, cleared that out (and replaced the air filter they ate that too) and I got it to start and run. Now its back to the same issue where it will run for about 10 min perfectly then start to stutter for about 1 min then die. Once it shuts off, I cant re start it until the engine is cool to the touch. Should I still mess with the timing? I talked to a couple other people and they think it could be the distributor as well, or another electronic component related to the ignition system. I guess the theory here is that when the electrical part (hall effect switch, or other component) heats up its contacts expand and it fails, once cool all is well. sound right? I'm thinking about just changing the distributor and hoping for the best (although it will be an expensive miss diagnosis if im wrong, expensive little part and no local yards have them) Any last things i should try before i pick one up?

I am determined to get this thing running, if i cant do it there is a good Japanese specialist local that is willing to take a look at it for me... Once its up and running I have these questions:

Should I change the timing belt?
Should i change the automatic trany fluid? I heard some transmissions tend to have issues/fail after having fluid changed.
will do a full tune up. use ngk plugs and wires? Do cap and rotor, check all hoses and lines anything else?  What oil do you recommend?

Thanks again for all the information. Great little community you have here, friendly and helpful people.

-Chris

any exhaust colors?

the maf could be bad also....

most oil change places can do transmission flushes if your worried about it...but it shouldnt be to hard to change the fluid on the auto. If you have the tools and the work space it might be worth it to look into doing a swap...if you plan it right and find an engine for cheap you can do a kade swap real fast on the cheap. The 20e isnt going to make very much power no matter what you do to it.

It's probably the cooling paste or a clogged fan. Try clean and start up your pc again

edit: oops wrong forum. just read the topic lol

a broken maf would make it run like crap. But its running good when its cold..

My guess is the ecu.. Just buy a used one. (search in the wanted to sell forum)

when my coolant temp sensor died my car would run fine cold then when it warmed up it would stutter and die.....then Id have to wait a long ass time for everything to cool down to get the car home haha (this was on my old ca18et)

/\ that sounds likely....i said maf because i was thinking that the maf was most likely damaged from the rodents living inside it.

but I was also shooting a shat load of black exhaust smoke when it would stutter (then die).....so I dunno lol

Kustamogenbut I was also shooting a shat load of black exhaust smoke when it would stutter (then die).....so I dunno lol

I am planning to stick with this engine, not really looking for a performance car but something to putt around in on the weekends.

I don't think it's the vain airflow meter as the car runs perfectly until reaching operating temp. The only electronic component in the VAM (other than ATS)is a potentiometer of sorts, if its shot its not going to run right from the get go, or give me issues on varying engine load… its running perfect even if I tramp on it all the way till it gets hot. I did clean the VAM though.

I don't know how to accurately test the ECU but I unbolted it from the car and with the engine running, when the car started to stutter I kicked it and shook all the wires with no difference.

Coolant sensor makes a ton of sense, so I figured this car would just run in open loop if I disconnected the sensor and sure enough it fired right up (starting with a cool car) with it unplugged, running rich but running. Car ran till hot, sputtered out and died… so I am guessing that's not the issue. I could also test it with my ohm meter if anyone has the resistance per temp chart handy…

So I decided to pick up a remanufactured distributor, should be here in 2 days and ill let you know if it worked.

Side note: What is the timing belt change interval for these engines? How bad of a job is it? Looks like you have good access to it..

Thanks again!

-Chris

Up and running   distributor solved it

Replaced the belts (including the timing) plugs, wires, fuel filter, vac lines everything appears to be sound. Front calapers are hanging up, all rotors are shot along with the pads and I got a leak at the flange where the cat meets the downpipe. Once I get all of that replaced it will be off for a full detail and out on the road   Ill post up some pictures if you are interested, it really is a time capsule

Thanks for all the help!

I probably should of mentioned this when I first posted but sounds like a cts (coolant temp sensor) problem when I first got my ca back together I forgot to hook the cts up and it would start right up but once it was warm would die when the cts is bad it doesn't know how much fuel you need when its warm so it goes into limp mode and shuts the car off make sure the connection is good if it is then replace it because its most likely bad. Its located at the front of the intake mani under the tb towards the head be very carefull when replacing it I replaced mine and accidently broke while tightening it you want it a little ti ghter than finger tight. Hope that helps.