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How-To: Dual Coil Mod

Started by Johnnyfive · Jul 13, 2004 · 102postsSMF 2010–26

JohnnyfiveJul 13, 2004, 4:29 am · #1

This was originally posted by ARRO the rest of this thread can be found here[/a]



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK  

Lemme break it down for everyone.  

Turbos that will bolt directly on to your stock manifold and piping:  
Garrett T2 (also known as AiResearch M10) - Stock turbo is a T2. Once you go above 10psi you are starting to get too hot. Some guys have pushed it to 15psi but I bet it\'s barbequing.  

Garrett T25 - T25 is a direct bolt-on EXCEPT for a T25 taken off of a 2G DSM (Eclipse and Talon turbo), because the DSM uses a custom Mitsubishi exhaust housing with the wrong flange. Our manifold uses a standard Garrett T2-style flange, so any other car\'s T25 with a standard flange will fit. Some Z31 300ZX\'s have T25\'s (I think 86-88?), some of them have T3. The Z31\'s with the T25\'s will bolt right on without any changes. T25 can take you to 15 psi before it starts to get too hot, so I\'d say it gives you about 5 psi more potential over your stock T2.  

Garrett T28 - T28 is larger than T25, much larger. T28 is only available on some Skylines and I think maybe some JDM S15 Silvias (not sure though), but the way most people get one is from a turbo build vendor who takes a T2 or T25 core and rebuilds it into T28 specs. Should flow for about 20 psi before too hot, 5 more above T25 and 10 above T2. Should also be able to use standard T2-style exhaust housing as far as manifold flange goes, but will posess a larger turbine wheel.  

Forced Performance FP-Big28 - The FP-Big28 flows more than the T28. Forced Performance has secret specs for their compressor wheel and turbine wheel, which they tell us are both larger and more efficient than the standard T28 internals. They say it won\'t have any more noticable lag than a standard T28, but will definitely outflow it. Expect around 25psi worth of efficiency, which is 15psi more than the stock T2\'s efficiency (more than double). To make this they take a stock T2 or T25 core and rebuild/rework it for around $750. In the world of turbochargers, this is an extremely good price, both because it is a 100% bolt-on solution requiring no physical modifications to install, and for the claimed results. Forced Performance says they have the performance data to back it up. They have been building some crazy high-potential turbochargers for some time, and are a major force in DSM and other turbocar communities.  

Turbos that will NOT bolt directly on and require modification:  
Garrett/AiResearch T3 - Alot of people like these for a number of reasons. T3 can flow good amounts of air, has a large variety of compressors and turbines and housings both exhaust and compressor side. You can even get them built with heavy duty shafts which are stronger and thicker than stock T3 shafts. 360-degree thrust bearings are available. durability and reliability are one of the best you can get. A wide variety of accesories like bare flanges for custom weld jobs and a plethora of oil and water fitting options make these very desirable turbochargers. It also helps that these are probably the most available turbochargers you can find, as they are used on a wide variety of cars. They WILL however not be bolt-on for a turbo S12. You can either have a custom tubular manifold made with a standard Garrett T3 flange, or you can weld on a T3 flange over the T2 flange of the stock exhaust manfold. This is quicker and easiest, and also will give the turbo\'s larger compressor housing a quarter of an inch or so extra clearance underneath the exhaust runners. T3 swingvalve assemblies are available that let you weld on tubular downpipes to house your O2 sensor and route directly to where your stock downpipe starts. Water and oil lines will have to be custom, but you can use AN-style fittings as they are also widely available for T3 fitting sizes. There are even braidd line kits available for T3 turbochargers.  

Switzer turbochargers - I am told that there are some smaller Switzer turbochargers that are comparable to T3 turbo size that have been successfully used on CA18ET engines in Europe. However, I have no information on these turbochargers at this time. I recommend T3 instead as there is much more part and technical support for the Garrett turbochargers.  

Turbos that are WAY too big for CA18ET and CA20ET (hybrid) engines:  
T3/T4 Hyrbid - The T3/T4 is way to big on the compressor side. All levels of T4 compressor wheel trim are too big. T4 is for people looking to go past 25psi while maintaining cold, dense air charge. I do not see a CA18ET or CA20ET hybrid engine handling upwards of 30psi. Sure, a T4 compressor can be held at 20 psi, but it\'s no more efficient there than a T3 or an FP-Big-28. So instead it becomes a collosal waste of money, since these usually run $1,000 USD or more depending on configuration. It will also have alot of lag. DON\'T WASTE YOUR MONEY!  

Full T4 - Full T4 is for 18-wheelers... for diesel rigs pulling trailers with their fifth wheel. OR for hard-core drag race engines, built from the ground up, with redesigned engine blocks, lots of custom internal parts (some you could also order, some you cannot so easilly obtain no mater what). Not for our cars. Our cars will never be drag queens. Our cars are more road course imspired, as was popular with 80\'s Japanese and European sport vehicle manufacturers. Besides, T3 or FP-Big28 will be able to yield excellent dragstrip times on their own in our cars.  

Hope this info helps.  

Of course, with any turbocharged engine, the more air and boost you flow, the higher the fuel requirements, so any resonable improvement in turbo will likely require you to upgrade your fuel system in some fashion.


I decided to post it here becuase we seem to be getting alot of turbo questions lately If we could sticky this like it was in the other forum it would be nice
MagnumJul 24, 2004, 1:55 am · #2

I don\'t agree that all t3/t4 hybrids are to large. I have the t3/t4 40 trim. It\'s just a hair larger the the t3 super 60 and far more efficient.

wacomukAug 10, 2004, 10:40 pm · #3

t25 is ok to 1 bar

YellowPreludeRAug 11, 2004, 2:20 am · #4

hey. where do you guys get the CHEAPEST  [span style=\'color:Red\']NEW [span style=\'color:Black\']turbos.  Im looking for nothing smaller than my T25G.   Mine is an M24 .80 A/R  with a .64a/r exhaust Garrett  T25G.  Im looking to go BIGGER with my ca20et project. Let me know where you all get your stuff.  MUST have a t25 flange. Let me know.  THanks.[/span][/span]

s12_supacarAug 11, 2004, 4:15 am · #5

has anyone every used the turbo of a 2.0L grand Am or Sunbird thats what i was gonna use as far as i know it\'s a T2 but the inlet is differant and it looks a little bigger as well all of the fittings for the lines are bigger.

Mike

FesterAug 11, 2004, 1:22 pm · #6
hey. where do you guys get the CHEAPEST  [span style=\'color:Red\']NEW [span style=\'color:Black\']turbos.  Im looking for nothing smaller than my T25G.   Mine is an M24 .80 A/R  with a .64a/r exhaust Garrett  T25G.  Im looking to go BIGGER with my ca20et project. Let me know where you all get your stuff.  MUST have a t25 flange. Let me know.  THanks.[/span][/span]


I don\'t know where you\'d get one new in the US apart from Nissan, but the T28 off the S14/S15 bolts almost straight onto the T25 flange on the factory manifold of the CA18DET.  You need to oval out one of the stud holes on the turbo slightly, about 1mm, and it is otherwise a bolt-on replacement.  The T28 is a far larger and more capable turbo than the T25 (I looked at them side by side off the car and was a bit Shocked at the size difference), the only problem I have with it is that it does take quite a bit more revs to come onto boost; generally about 4000rpm for say 12psi.  I\'ve made (once, as a test!) 24psi with my T28, and I don\'t think it had reached its limits (I was doing about 5600rpm, so the engine was nowhere near peak power at 7200rpm yet).  I don\'t plan on doing it any more though, I like my turbo just fine as it is - working!
KaZAug 11, 2004, 2:55 pm · #7
I beleive the limits of the T25 are up to about 250hp.  

The clutch can hold almost 170. Other than that it really depends on condition


I kinda had that problem...  I had a T28 off a Sunny GTiR for a short while...  quickly fired my stock clutch...  I\'ve now got the T25 off a CA18DET and the Clutch from one as well...  =)  Doing much better now.
KaZAug 11, 2004, 2:56 pm · #8
t25 is ok to 1 bar


For how long?  I\'d seen people say it was only good to 12psi, not 14.x

Thanks,
DrPepperAug 14, 2004, 2:44 pm · #9

Does the clutch from the S13 200sx 16 valve turbo  fit an S12 8 valve turbo ?
Thanks

ChEsTeRAug 14, 2004, 8:36 pm · #10

It\'s the same chluch

MechperformanceAug 26, 2004, 3:55 am · #11

A T4 is not to big for a built CA18 .....SR\'s are making 505 RWHP with cams on race gas stock block......I would suggest a TO4E or T04B from [url]www.jgycustoms.com[/a] ......Its an SR turbo but spools quick and makes big power (its expensive but worth it)......As long as you SOHC guys keep the boost turned down to a good sensible level you should be OK....the only thing with the T04E/B is Fuel, you need lots of it.....Were talking 550CC at least.....Along with a Z32 MAF.....I think Im going to buy a CA18ET and try to make big power with it.....I hear the head flows like shit in stock form though....(no offense guys) .......

And for you CA18DET guys, a presicion tuning SC61 would be nice....You also have the garret Disco potato or for a drifter turbo you might look into the Garret GT25R (may be RS cant remember....) All of the garret turbos I just told you about are available at [url]www.cheapturbos.com[/a] ......

-Jeff

bartc_jAug 26, 2004, 4:55 am · #12
Does the clutch from the S13 200sx 16 valve turbo  fit an S12 8 valve turbo ?
Thanks


well the pressure plate and disc will bolt up fine but the flywheel wont
one_equals_twoAug 31, 2004, 2:26 pm · #13

I just put on a 60 trim t3 with a .63 A/R exhaust housing and I have 14 pounds of boost by 3,000 rpms.  This is with the stock manifold and poor SOHC head.  It would probably work better with a 7-8k rpm redline however since it doesn\'t seem to really get moving until 4K RPMS.

Mr.200Sep 2, 2004, 4:25 pm · #14

This is for the self diagnostic only, mode III if you\'re counting

Find your ECU

It\'s hiding behind the kick panel down by the driver\'s feet (LHD models)

Take off the cover, undo the 12mm bolts holding it in place.

posted image

Take a jeweller\'s screwdriver (the little ones) and you\'ll find a little hole with a slotted screw inside it. Turn that screw fully clockwise until you hear a click.

Watch the 2 LEDs. They will flash together 1-1-2-1-3-1-4-1-5 and start over.

As soon as it flashes 3 times, turn the screw all the way back counterclockwise. This will lock you in the \"self diagnosis\" mode

The LEDs will now flash at you. The first number of flashes represents the first digit (tens), the second, the second(ones).

And this is the breakdown of the codes it will give you

11 Crank angle sensor
12 Air flow meter
13 Water temp sensor
14 Car idle sensor
21 Ignition signal
22 Fuel Pump
23 Idle Switch
24 Overdrive switch (Autos only)
31 Air Con (Or no fault on cars without Air con)
32 Start Signal
34 Detonation Sensor
44 No Fault

By no means is this fool proof, but it\'s usually a good starting point.

cls12vg30Sep 2, 2004, 6:25 pm · #15

It should be noted that these codes very by year and engine.  On my \'88 SE, when you are changing the modes, the red and the green LED\'s flash together 1-2-3-4-5, with no 1 in between.  The codes are also different, I don\'t have them in front of me, but on mine 55 = no codes, not 44.

DrPepperSep 7, 2004, 5:16 pm · #16

thanks for the help, i was hoping the s13 clutch could handle more power than an s12. Would the std. clutch be ok using a t25 turbo ?

KeithMay 4, 2006, 12:54 pm · #17

EDIT:  The info in this thread is quite mixed, please see post #71 on page 4 for solid details.

More info will be added, and another thread started and stickied.

Thanks!

--------------------

keith are you sure thats a good idea to do it before the transformers? doing it that way doubles the load on the 12v circuit that is designed to supply only the primary coil. wouldn't that rob both coils of juice cuasing a decreased coil output?

Dunno........I can say i've had it hooked up this way for about 3 years now and nothing has crapped out so far.  
I do know with it hooked up this way, if I disconnect the primary coil plug wire and only leave the secondary coil plug wire on....and test drive, it still pulls strong all the way to redline.......and without the "coil mod" and this tried, the engine will die at WOT
Jsvob03May 7, 2006, 3:32 am · #18

if i may, i would suggest for all connections going the soldering route, with heatshrink to cover the wires. If someone has never soldered before, no worries. There are these things called \"Crimp and seal\" connectors. its like heatshrink + a wire crimp that is pre-loaded with a goo of sorts. makes an EXCELLENT weathertight seal!

nissanmanMay 7, 2006, 8:40 am · #19

Ok, did this the other day..
Just hooked up a wire from positive to positive from coil 1 to coil 2.

When it wasnt like this, i wud disconnect the primary coil and it wudnt
rev past 3,000rpm, now with this mod, i took the primary coil off, and it sounds like crap, like a WRX, but revs past 3,000rpms with just the one coil.

I havnt noticed any power increase really.. mayb just a bit smoother up a bit higher revs.

KeithMay 7, 2006, 3:23 pm · #20

Maybe a bad/ weak coil or transistor?  Mine idles and runs perfectly smooth with either coil independently hooked up

nissanmanMay 9, 2006, 11:32 am · #21

Wierd..
Ive got brand new Bosch coils..
and new transistors.....
thats frikin bullcrap... Gonna look into it tho.
CHeers,

westside27375May 15, 2006, 4:07 am · #22

I tried this mod with no success....although I have no dyno numbers to prove it.

I did the \"keith\" version since I have the same ignition setup. Mine felt like it accutally lost power runing both coils. I dunno..anyways I have non standard plugs (a heat range colder) so maybe that has something to do with it.

demonic s12May 19, 2006, 11:13 pm · #23

so basically its a bridge from the black/white to the black/white on the other coil right?
i did this an i noticed it was a bit smoother above 4k or so, but no real power diff...

five10freakMay 25, 2006, 2:44 am · #24

ok, but what is the purpose of this mod, or maybe i just don\'t get it. i did the MSD coil swap, and that was awesome, car pulls like a bandit no sputter or hicup, but this \"jumper wire\" has me lost ,dunno

Slide_FestMay 25, 2006, 3:13 am · #25

It is because of the two coils that our cars have. One for primary and one for secondary. One for Exhaust and one for Intake. After 3000RPM the exhaust side quits out so this ensures that both of the sides fire throughout the whole RPM range. I think.

IndecisiveMay 25, 2006, 3:17 am · #26

the flaw comes in the design of the head.  Because the spark plugs come in on the sides, you don\'t get a complete burn of the air/fuel mixture if only one side is firing.  

In our cars, the exhaust side plugs stop firing after 4000rpm, this means, in the upper RPM range, we\'re not getting a complete burn.  

By wiring up the secondary coil to use the primary coil\'s signal, all 8 plugs are firing and there is no cutoff point.  

You\'re not going to feel a lot of power increase, but in most cases, you will feel that the car has smoother feel in the upper RPM range.

Umai NaaJun 3, 2006, 9:44 am · #27

I'm gonna try this tomorrow.

MikaelJun 5, 2006, 11:16 am · #28

Im a bit lost in the new design but where did the guide go? I need to try it because my car hesitate in the range from 2000 to 3000 rpm and this really sucks!

IndecisiveJun 5, 2006, 7:46 pm · #29

...haha cockbite.  We lost it in the conversion.

I'll rewrite it in the next few days.

Hunting the wild S12Jul 12, 2006, 10:30 pm · #30

Yeah I need details on this mod as well I need to do this bad. I'm about to loose one of my coils So planning on replacing both.

IndecisiveJul 13, 2006, 3:51 am · #31

ahha basically...from my memory...snip the secondary coil's black and white wire and tap it into the primary coil's black and white wire.

I've been lazy to rewrite the whole damn thing lol  sorry guys heh.  

SheppS12Jul 13, 2006, 3:58 am · #32

so what i did was wrong? went + on one coil to + on the other one... using some 12gauge wire i think

IndecisiveJul 13, 2006, 4:23 am · #33

I think what you did was what was posted on aus12
http://www.aus12.bb2.org/index.php?showtopic=609&st=0

That's for the MK.I ca20e.  IT doesn't have a transistor.  

All other models(mk.II ca20e, MK.I/II ca18et, vg30e) have a different coil pack using a transistor, which means you'd need to use my method.

Umai NaaJul 13, 2006, 7:54 am · #34

*Wipes bead of sweat from brow*

starbucksJul 13, 2006, 6:05 pm · #35

Hot snap! i thought of doing that one time but i was too scared ( thought ide break something oh yeah )..

EddyJul 22, 2006, 2:24 pm · #36

wait I'm still confused on this setup..

are you just wiring the signals from the transistor to the coil
as in primary transistor to both coils?

or are you wiring the ecu signal to the transistors?!
as in getting the primary signal from the ecu and wiring that up to the 2ndary transistor?

87S12NotchAug 3, 2006, 10:59 pm · #37

I just finished this mod and it made a world of difference to my tired engine. It revs soo much freer through the rpms and now it doesn't seem to fall off as bad over 4k. I did what Indecisive said to do as I have an 87 and it worked perfect the first time.

this mod gets 5/5 in my books.

Here's how it was done since no one has a detailed write up on it posted anymore...

First you need to remove your air box (or filter if you have an after market one like me). Take the rubber elbow off as well that connects from the MAF to the metal pipe that runs over the rad. I disconnected the MAF sensor from the harness (just 2 plastic connectors) to get it out of my way so I had a little more room, you don't have to do this but I like to have room to work.

Next, on the 86 and newer (if I'm wrong please correct me) CA20E's you can't just simply bridge the 2 positive (black with white tracer) wires as they have a built in transistor. What you'll have to do is cut the black with a white tracer on the secondary coil (secondary coil is the one closest to the engine mounted vertically), then run an extention from that wire to the black with a white tracer on the primary coil. Don't cut the wire on the primary coil, just strip the shielding back to expose the wire. Now tie the extended wire from the secondary coil to the now stripped back primary wire.

Soldering is the best way to seal all your splices but if you can't don't worry. I used crimp connectors and they work great. Just make sure that after you're done that everything is sealed up good and tight. I used electrical tape and made sure everything was covered well.

Now just put everything back together and take it for a test drive. You may or may not feel the difference but now you'll have all 8 plugs firing at all times and at all RPMs.

Thats all there is to it.

If your engine is an '85 and older you can just do a jumper wire between the two coils black with white tracer wires and you're done.

PaulAug 6, 2006, 6:03 pm · #38

When Mike gets home I might do this to the XE today.

IndecisiveAug 7, 2006, 6:05 am · #39

thanks for doing a quick writeup 87S12Notch I've just been really lazy lol.

The weird thing is..according to other write-ups for other mods...that shouldn't work lol  

According to the blaster SS coil install, the signal wire is the green wire, and the black with white is ground.  

If that's the case...then it doesn't make any sense that the dual coil mod works when connecting both black wires cause the power should shut off to the secondary coil/transistor anyways lol.  

But what made me think the black/white wires were the power is simply because of where I traced their leads to in the ECCS wiring diagram.  

iono...I haven't tried it the other way, and now my ca18et is out of commission.

87S12NotchAug 10, 2006, 5:26 am · #40

no problems on doing the writeup.

I guess an easy way to see if the BK/WH is a ground would be to take the plug wire that goes from the secondary coil off of the distributor and put a spark tester on the end of the plug wire then start the car and see if there's a spark coming from it at all RPMs. I may do this tomorrow to make sure the wires being used are 100% correct.

five10freakAug 10, 2006, 12:06 pm · #41

i tell ya, once you understand this mod and do it, youre car will so much more happier.my 510/s12 lives at 6-7k rpm and it is just baby bottom smooth. deff. a 100    mod.

JonBSep 23, 2006, 3:02 am · #42

I think the black and white wires are hot. Both the INT and EXH BL/WT wires are connected after the fuse block. The blue[INT] and blue/white[EXH] are both the ground and the signal side, The ECU contols the timing by opening or closing the circut on that side.

blitzOct 29, 2006, 1:58 am · #43

any complete re-write on this mod? or even a pic? how bout on the other S12 sites?

OmarFeb 2, 2007, 10:06 pm · #44

will the turbo off the ca18det work. yes im new to s12's sorry if its sounds stupid.

lvDaveFeb 13, 2007, 2:57 am · #45

A re-write on this would be really nice.

Empedocles99Aug 9, 2007, 7:53 am · #46

On MK1 I have found a simple way to get dual coil all the time when planning my megasquirt install. I have no idea how the mk2 works, I have no manuals and no interest in finding out.

I don't believe that these approaches risk frying out your coils trigger transistors by trying to trigger both coils off of the same one, as the other methods of 'dual coil mod' may be doing.

I have tried this on my ca20e and it seems to work. I have not tried the ca18et, but I am relatively sure it would work. Make sure you have a way to reverse the changes in case you don't like the outcome

On the ca20e it seems to get rid of some hesitation around 3000-3500 rpms.

Ultimately, you are responsible for mods you make to your car. This mod may make your car break, or kill you. You have been warned.

ca20e

Simple version

Cut the wire from the ecu that goes to the distributor IC, pin 17 on the 20 pin connector, the Green/Red wire.

Explanation version

The distributor has a chip in it that the ECU sends a signal to when it wants only one spark. If you sever this connection, then you get dual spark all the time.

The diagram from the Factory Service Manual (in the 85 version) on page EF & EC 30, under 'Spark Plug Switching Control (CA20E engine)' shows the decision tree for when to choose 1 vs. 2 spark system.

It only switches to 1 spark when under heavy load and 'Drive' which I assume means 'Not in neutral' for manual, or 'D' is selected for auto.

Note that the 'Heavy Load' signal also advances timing on Automatic Transmission models, so this mod may not increase performance for Autos because of this, I really don't know.

Either way, the wire to disconnect is pin 17 to the ECU, G/R (I believe this is Green/Red) wire.

Or, if you look at the engine wiring harness, and look at the plug end that goes to the distributor on the engine harness, the wire to disconnect is labeled as x in the ascii chart below:

x  G/R   Pin/Wire to disconnect
a  B/W   Coil (+)
b  L/W   Exhaust Coil (-)
c  L     Intake Coil (-) and Tach Output
_        Tab on the plug

x a
b_c

ca18et

Simple Version

Use the intake coil trigger signal to trigger both coil transistors. Sever the wire on the ecu's pin 14. Splice the transistor side of pin 14's wire in to pin 5's wire.

Explanation Version

Pin 5  (Blue/White near ECU, Blue near distributor) is the intake coil transistor trigger.
Pin 14 (Blue/Red near ECU, Blue/White near distributor) is the exhaust coil transistor trigger.

Near the distributor, on the engine wiring harness, there are two plugs, one for each coil transistor. On these plugs, do the following:
Cut the Blue/White (exhaust transistor trigger wire) and splice it in to the Blue (intake transistor trigger wire).

Essentially, the blue wire will send the trigger signal to both transistors.

That's it.

sideways_s12Oct 3, 2007, 2:51 am · #47

has anyone done this with the msd coils if so can you point in the direction of the write-up please as I will be doing this mod soon

KeithOct 3, 2007, 6:03 am · #48
sideways_s12has anyone done this with the msd coils if so can you point in the direction of the write-up please as I will be doing this mod soon

http://www.club-s12.org/faq/ca18et/blaster.html
sideways_s12Oct 3, 2007, 9:52 pm · #49

I meant to do the dual coil mod (the one where both set of plugs are on at the same time) but with the blaster ss coils

Long ShotFeb 1, 2008, 5:19 pm · #50

I'm a "bit" lost when it comes to cars wand what not but electrical systyems are like eating cake to me. My question is what does having two coils offer over have one. and would it work for my 86 200sx xe?