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is the s12 the true rival of the ae86

Started by SchizophrenicMC · Mar 17, 2013 · 20postsSMF 2010–26

SchizophrenicMCMar 17, 2013, 10:18 am · #1

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. More to the point, if you don't have the money to develop anything radically new, because accounting is breathing down your neck, why bother trying? We basically have 2 types of car engine: reciprocating 4-stroke and wankel rotary. Over 100 years of motoring and only 2 kinds of engine, and even then, the latter of the two is considered a novelty. We basically only have one kind of fuel for cars. Gasoline and diesel are both fairly similar petrochemicals derived from the same petroleum source. Transmissions still work by basic gearing down, and only recently have variable-ratio transmissions come into play. There are indeed only like 7 or 8 different suspension designs to suit countless types of car. The only real advancements in car technology, as of late (VVT, ABS, composites) are thanks more to other industries than the car industry. VVT, ABS, infotainment, and other computer-driven things have all evolved more because of the computer and digital media industries, forcing the cost of computer components down, and creating demand for media all the time. Composites have only started seeing use in cars in the last 20 years or so, despite them dating back to the 1950s.

Right now, the automotive industry is trying to do new things like hybrids and EVs, but even those aren't new ideas, and they won't likely stand the test of time like everything else about cars have.

tenzoMar 17, 2013, 11:42 am · #2

so in truth the last time a true leading edge that actually worked was during the 80s and 90s  during the age of the s chassis foxbody boxframe   witch i think are probly some of the best designs  epic

WonderingravenMar 17, 2013, 1:23 pm · #3

ironically the fox body started in 79,  s110 started in 79,  toyota AE85 / AE86 started in 83. Camaro / Firebird started in 83 as well.

StephenGMar 17, 2013, 2:01 pm · #4

Gas was cheaper, another generation needed their sports cars and future technology was exploding. The 80s were primed for tons of cool sports cars.

SchizophrenicMCMar 17, 2013, 3:11 pm · #5

And then the 90s had big shoes to fill, did so to varying degrees of success, and the 2000s got bogged down in rampant inflation and rising fuel costs.

tenzoMar 17, 2013, 4:43 pm · #6

cars are even crappier now then they where 20 30 years ago and i think this is funny but older cars got better gas mileage then there newer counter parts

SchizophrenicMCMar 17, 2013, 6:16 pm · #7

I wouldn't say they're crappier. They certainly are much nicer to be in than older cars. It's just, for the last 10 years or so, gas mileage and luxury have been the new speed. We're starting to see a shift back towards visceral performance, what with the Toyobaru Twins, a new Miata in the works, an IRS Mustang, rumors of a new Supra, the upcoming SRT Barracuda, Ford's new ST lineup, the Chevy SS, and Dodge Challenger and Charger. Cars are growing their styling, interior quality, and most importantly, their performance back. And with better fuel economy, at a lower price, adjusted for inflation.

The next 5 years are an important time for the automobile, and I'm actually quite hopeful.

ArroMar 17, 2013, 7:23 pm · #8

The thing to consider is if NISSAN intended the S12 to compete with the AE86. And the answer is no. The S12 was in design before that, but so was another Toyota car. Toyota had been putting a LOT more effort into a better-established legacy known as the Celica, whereas the Trueno was a new, quick and dirty platform. The Celica saw all the official racing. The Celica got the best aftermarket. the RA65's RWD chassis had been in production since 1981, and was a much better option than the Nissan S110 Silvia/Gazelle/200SX, both for racers and for the general consumer worldwide. And IMO it even looked nicer.

The S12 platform was Nissan's response to the RA65 that had easily outsold the S110. It was essentially an RA65 with a little more visual refinement (note the slightly rounded corners and rounded sides of the rear glass, for example), with a LOT more fancy electronics and a more modern interior design. It wasn't designed to compete with the Celica Supra, however, because Nissan probably saw the new 300ZX (Z31) as more than capable of that (which of course it was). But the obvious choice to give the S12 only four-cylinder powerplants, of which in most countries were economical and slightly peppy engines, was an obvious attempt to counter the 22RE that had propelled the Celica series into popularity.

The AE86 wasn't a part of the consideration. Why? Because it was developed around the same time. With a totally different purpose in mind. Recall that the TE chassis was designed with RWD. The AE series was more of a sportier TE. Which the TE wasn't designed to compete with the S110 (of course) and surely the TE nor the AE were not a response to the successful first gen and second gen Z cars. That was, of course, the job of the Celica Supra.

The AE86 and its variants are something of an oddball community of cars and owners, and for good reason. There really ISN'T an analog to them. They borrow visual designs popular cars of the time, including their own Celicas. Then again, even Honda had a hatchback Accord around the same era. So it's not fair to suggest that the AE86 is a "rival" really of any car. It sort of stands on its own, for better... and even for worse. Why for worse?

Sure, the 4A-GE was a great engine, but it was like a limited-version of the AE86, as most of them had the lesser SOHC engine and the shittier open-differential rear end w/ drum brakes. AE86 was, if anything, an experiment. Not a sure bet for Toyota. Again, it lacks the legacy of the Celica because Toyota didn't place as much interest in it as they did the Celica namesake. It was enthusiasts and then later popular media (Initial D) that gave it a life of its own, one that Toyota never intended.

But the S12 fulfilled exactly what Nissan intended for it. It answered the challenge of the RA65. Unfortunately, by then Toyota had already seen the writing on the wall, and in 1985 the new Celica went to a FWD design that made more sense. Lower production costs with FWD, and Toyota was more concerned with another Japanese manufacturer: Honda. Honda was quickly becoming the company to go to marketing war with, not Nissan. Nissan was becoming known for...? They were, by the mid 80's, beginning to lose their focus. Yes, the 300ZX would persist into two more generations, keeping the Nissan brand name in the public eye. But the rest of their cars would, over the course of the next decade or so, become lackluster compared to the other two manufacturers. Toyota and Honda would duke it out in the 90's and even the first decade of the new millenia, while Nissan quietly built cars, ultimately lost their Z legacy for awhile, and the S-chassis was like a good television rerun. It's old, you can enjoy it, but nothing new seems to equal what used to be.

Did Nissan's S12 hold it's own? Sure, for awhile... I think consumers in the United States bought enough of them to prove that, and the V6 versions did indeed sell. The S12 endured as a consumer choice whereas the AE86 is only kept alive by performance enthusiasts and drift fans. If anything, the drift craze has caused the S12 to become noticed again by performance enthusiasts, so now it has both daily driver owners getting groceries as well as is beginning to enjoy the fandom that the AE86 community needed a cartoon to get.

S12 has begun to see "drift tax" on resale price. Just read the for sale ads and you'll find that here and there.

S12 is a better built car than the AE86, and has more modern features.

S12 was designed to best the RA65, and it did so. Unfortunately for Nissan, they missed the boat by a few years, because everyone else in Japan was switching to FWD at the time. When the S12 was new, the fresh opinion was that RWD was for legit racecars and sportscars, and anything less than balls-out was better off FWD. Of course, Nissan didn't get the message, because the S13 was produced. And honestly, it never sold as well as the S12. And certainly never as well as the Civic or the Accord, or the (then) newer Acura line of cars.

Now, this is all my opinion. But the point here is that in no way was or is the S12 the rival of the AE86. The AE86 had no rival then, because it was the oddball. It has no rival now, because it's mostly supported by fandom and drifters. The S12 was originally designed to compete not with the AE86, but with the RA65. And nowadays, it's still mostly under the radar. Where it isn't, it's associated as a "lesser S13", and not as an alternative to the AE86. At least among those who know Japanese cars. Anyone with enough car ignorance can judge that it's RWD, came as a hatch and coupe, and has angular lines, and say "they're the same thing".

StephenGMar 17, 2013, 7:41 pm · #9

I'm reporting that post to the moderaters Arro, for being totally legit.

ArroMar 17, 2013, 7:44 pm · #10

LOL

sideways_s12Mar 17, 2013, 9:02 pm · #11

lol

WonderingravenMar 17, 2013, 9:08 pm · #12

Arro has spoken like a true prodigy.

SchizophrenicMCMar 17, 2013, 9:48 pm · #13

Once again, Arro is more succinct and correct than me. Of course, for the life of me, I can never remember the Celica prior to the ST185. It just never shows up on my radar. The MA61 Supra is definitely a kicker in my mind, but the RA65 just kinda passes through with no imprint for me. Of course, I suppose in general, the reverse is true: the old Celica has more of a name and memory than the old S12.

Thinking about Nissan like you've presented, though, makes me feel like a miserable fanboy. I want to believe Nissan can make good products, but you're right: they've spent the last nearly 30 years aiming off the mark. Kinda stings.

s12/200sxMar 20, 2013, 2:32 am · #14

Hahaha lol Arro Is Right

sideways_s12Mar 20, 2013, 7:21 pm · #15

Of course elders usually are right lol....

ArroMar 20, 2013, 10:13 pm · #16

The point I make here is that Nissan has continually missed the mark. They make some interesting shit, but the real press comes out when Toyota or Subaru gives us something. Subaru seems to have dethroned Honda as the Toyota rival. Still.. the real exciting cars now aren't Japanese. They're European and.... American? Yes, that's right. Euro or US branded cars are being made in more exciting and affordable varieties, both in big, gas-guzzling V8's and in quick, sharp-looking four cylinder cars. I would much rather drive a new Dart R/T Turbo or Fiat 500 Abarth than any current Nissan of the same class. Or even the new Fusion which just blows the mind with good looks. Tanner Faust is working with Ford to release the new ST version with over 300 hp. Sorry Nissan.

SchizophrenicMCMar 20, 2013, 10:47 pm · #17
Arro on 10:13:32 PM / 20-Mar-13The point I make here is that Nissan has continually missed the mark. They make some interesting shit, but the real press comes out when Toyota or Subaru gives us something. Subaru seems to have dethroned Honda as the Toyota rival. Still.. the real exciting cars now aren't Japanese. They're European and.... American? Yes, that's right. Euro or US branded cars are being made in more exciting and affordable varieties, both in big, gas-guzzling V8's and in quick, sharp-looking four cylinder cars. I would much rather drive a new Dart R/T Turbo or Fiat 500 Abarth than any current Nissan of the same class. Or even the new Fusion which just blows the mind with good looks. Tanner Faust is working with Ford to release the new ST version with over 300 hp. Sorry Nissan.

I must attest to this. We were recently searching for a brand new midsize sedan, and we scoured the market. (Except the chevies) We tested all sorts of vehicles, starting with the new Impreza, and including the new Altima. Ultimately, we decided on a 2013 Ford Fusion. Ford has seriously, seriously stepped up their game this time around. It's not only the best looking midsize we tested, but the best to live with. In testing, we also touched on such cars as the Dodge Dart and Ford Focus, and they were also surprisingly good. Not quite as good as the Altima or Impreza, but significantly cheaper. The ST version of the Focus is even better, and that's set a trend, it seems, within Ford. They're expanding their ST line to the Fiesta, and rumors and speculation abound regarding a Fusion ST. At the same time, they're engineering the best Mustang yet, and Chevy is redesigning the god-awful Camaro of today into something worthwhile, as well as releasing a RWD sport sedan, plus they've announced an amazing Corvette. (The first to stir my soul, that's for sure) Chrysler is cooking up a brand new R/T line, including some new models, and their quality has risen shockingly since the Fiat merger.

My experience with the new cars on the market is in agreement with Arro's statement. The Americans and Europeans are picking up where the Japanese have let us down. Even the Koreans are doing pretty good. I'd likely rather own a Kia Optima or Hyundai Genesis than a Toyota Avalon or Nissan Maxima. (Jury's still out on the Accord) Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Mazda, I issue a challenge to you: make a line of cars that make me want to drive them again. You've got some individual products that catch my eye, but most of your respective lines are bland, boring, and leave me aching for more, and as demonstrated, we got that more somewhere else. Somewhere distinctly Euro-MURRCAN. (I should note: the Fusion was designed by a joint German-American team)

(PS: I didn't forget Mitsubishi, I just never liked them in the first place)
ArroMar 20, 2013, 11:41 pm · #18

Yay, Hyundai Genesis and OMG how could we forget the Kia Optima Turbo! Champion of the pro road circuit!

SchizophrenicMCMar 21, 2013, 9:49 am · #19

The Genesis Sedan is shocking; I had no idea the Koreans knew how to make a V8!

sideways_s12Mar 21, 2013, 12:36 pm · #20

Right I was thinking the same thing