FJ vs. KA

It's an actual JDM 85 RS-X, it came with an FJ.

That, and the fact that in every way, an FJ is superior to a KA by leaps and bounds.

FJ > KA

Aside from it making the exact same power, I'm sure it will be better by leaps and bounds when it dies on the road and you're forced to wait the next month for maintenance parts to come in.

Engineered better than a KA? Absolutely.

An obsolete engine stateside? Absolutely.

All it can ever do at this point is look cool and get you brownie points. It'd be a pretty neat door stop too

HOWEVER THAT WAS NOT THE POINT OF MY FIRST POST, I was simply implying that you'll be making KA power with a carb'd FJ.

You're like the newest jeffwins on this forum, bro

DO YOUR HOMEWORK. The ports on both NA and turbo FJ heads are HUGE, and as crossflow heads go, are nearly straight, with little bending of the airpath in and out of the combustion chamber (this is why the FJ head is so WIDE). This is especially good for NA.

The KA24DE heads have a sharp downturn in the airflow path, which is why the twincam heads are so narrow compared to the SR or the CA18DET. This makes them torquey but restricts horsepower. This is also why when you want to make serious power with a KA24DE, you BOOST it. Even then, a boosted FJ will make more power using the same spec turbo and other associated hardware that you could put on a KA24DE. AIRFLOW is key.

And this car CAME with the engine. It's an authentic Silvia RS-X. Would you have me remove the FJ it came with and put in a KA? I would wager that 90% or better of people here would find that notion ridiculous.

And as far as leaving me stranded, anything that would do that to the FJ would do the same to the KA, only sooner. The FJ is in all technical specs (CFM, block strength, valvetrain strenth, rod strength, and on and on and on) stronger and more efficient at making power. SO... it will make the same power as a KA with LESS stress on the engine, THEREFORE making it a HELL of a lot more reliable in the end. It's similar in design to an L-series engine, which if you knew anything about vintage Nissan engines, you would know that those L-series engines are just short of bulletproof.

Anything that would require me to be down for periods of time in order to obtain parts would require labor time, too, and the KA would require the same labor (or more?). I can get parts. Will it cost me more? Sure. But the extra cost and shipping time is the trade-off for an engine with superior performance specs, superior reliability, and  (OMG this is the BIG reason) the ORIGINAL engine that came with this RARE car.

And the FJ is no more obsolete than the KA24DE. In fact, you can run an FJ on SR20 electronics, which are essentially the same as the KA24DE electronics. But with the advantages that come with the FJ longblock.

You wanna claim I'm trying to win "brownie" points with my authentic JDM S12, go for it. I know there are dozens of people on here who would love to own this car.

BUT... you want us to be aware of your FIRST POST, which is to say that the FJ carbed will make what an KA24DE does.

I have news for you, this engine it sits (only timed properly) would probably make almost double that. The previous owner was hoping for 300+ NA. If you understood both the tuneability of Weber DCOE style carbs, and the airflow properties of the FJ head, you'd just keep quiet in this thread and save face.

In no way does the KA twincam head compare to the FJ head. Nor does the KA24DE intake manifold have the same flow capacity of twin Webers.

Actually, someone took and set up a KA24DE with ITB's and Megasquirt to run it all, and large cams, ported head, etc etc etc... in an attempt to make an NA beast... and it didn't make a whole lot of power over EFI.

Really tho, I think you've been acting like something of an ass on this forum recently, but I only bothered to state all of the above for those newer peeps who might find it interesting. Since I think you're one of those guys (i.e. jeffwins) who will just argue rather than face facts or do any real research.

I was probably the first guy here to even bother to research this engine. I don't know everything about it, but I know enough to know you don't know much at all.

My logic and judgement follows that of ease, accessibility and fun/dollar ratio. You honestly don't have to pour every single bit of information you've learned off of wikipedia and google search, you talk as if you've applied any of this information in the real world.

I also find it hard to believe that you don't understand what I had meant although I had already explained it. I know you already have a KA car, why would anyone tell you to have two?

I've also had enough triple weber experience with many an L series, mind you, and it really would be the day to see that power from an FJ. But you're talking about potential possibilities here, for example a single cam ka making 300+hp carbureted is already standard practice for places such as rebello.

However, YOU, doing anything remotely similar, really would be quite the day. And I await your progress, rather than read your about these "possibilities". You can talk as long as you want, man, people read your posts like they read jeffwins posts. They're skimmed, if that.

Ass.

I didn't build this engine. Another guy did. And tuned it. And tested it. It's a proven fact. I'm going to consider further comments like yours imflammatory and not really contributing to anything. Just trolling. The last troll I banned WAS actually Jeff.

So let me give you not advice, but public directive: Show some respect. Or shut up. Because I'll start by collecting your troll posts. I'll finish by getting the team approval to boot you out.

You're just being an asshole in here. To me a number of months ago. Then to Sam. Now to me again. Big mistake. Take my directive and take it serious.

On-topic, I cleaned up the OEM cams and those will be going back in with the OEM FJ20 sprockets. Once the carbs are better tuned I can throw in the FJ24 cams and sprockets. Jsut going to make things easier. This is why I'm locating a valve cover gasket for a better price.

And to me about some transmissions in the past...I dont really see a reason for you to be here personally, and I can garuntee that if he says he will ban you, he will.  I dont give a fuck if you care whether you are banned from this site or not, I'm just letting you know, that it will happen.  I can also garuntee that if I notice a pattern of dickheadedness, others notice it too, not counting admins.  So far nearly every tech response you've given has been refuted, so I'd say its a good time to "shut up and sit down" for you.

deadpirate
Aside from it making the exact same power, I'm sure it will be better by leaps and bounds when it dies on the road and you're forced to wait the next month for maintenance parts to come in.

Engineered better than a KA? Absolutely.

An obsolete engine stateside? Absolutely.

You guys think we cant get shit off the shelf.....there are many things we can get that crossovers but like Arro was saying whats going to break???? This motor is a fucking monster and its nearly impossible to break, i know ive drivin my FJ around and beat the shit out of it.....Yeah maybe we cant get much aftermarket shit but what more does it need...a bigger turbo, standalone, front mount, etc....and that shit is beast..

All i can say is im not afraid to go past 8000 rpm in a FJ.....how many ppl can say that without breaking a sweat in a KA or any other swap.....

I didn't say that. I said it would be a task to get shit and I also said I wouldn't do it as in me personally. I'm not attacking fj motors guys sheesh.

Edit: I never once said why any of YOU should not stick with fj motors I simply stated why I wouldn't. If u have an fj kool if ur ka or vg cool, slow sohc ca cool, in the end its still a fucking s12 regardless. And yea if I owned a genuine fj car id swap it. I personally wouldn't wanna deal with it. If you think that's dumb ur intitled to YOUR opinion.

deadpirate
My logic and judgement follows that of ease, accessibility and fun/dollar ratio. You honestly don't have to pour every single bit of information you've learned off of wikipedia and google search, you talk as if you've applied any of this information in the real world.

I've also had enough triple weber experience with many an L series, mind you, and it really would be the day to see that power from an FJ. But you're talking about potential possibilities here, for example a single cam ka making 300+hp carbureted is already standard practice for places such as rebello.

EightySix200SX
arro out of ease of parts and you all will prolly all hate me for this id paint up the fj real pretty and use it as a coffee table...

This argument sounds very familiar. Someone was dead set my motor doesn't have parts(oem or aftermarket) available stateside and that it was proned to numerious problems. Now that very same person is justifying the use of a MUCH older engine with parts that actually aren't readily available at any part store with upkeep costs 4x as much as mine. On paper, the FJ sounds great; in reality, I'd hate to upkeep one. Anyway, looking forward to that 300hp CARB'd NA FJ.

You know what Hung I expect more from you insofar as using your noggin, 1. because I know you personally, and you're smart, and 2. because you know the story behind the car in question.

I didn't decide "oh gee, I'm gonna get an FJ!" It CAME with the freakin' car, man! I asked this earlier in this thread, but obviously I should state it again... what would you have me do, pluck the FJ out of this authentic Silvia, and put in a KA24DE? Or CA18DET? Really now. Is that what you're saying? I mean you make it sound like I said, "hmmmm... let's get an S12 and get an FJ and put them together."

And that's unfair of you. It's *almost* like you want to criticize me for something (anything? hmm this is all not your style, bro), but....? Even Matt (seishuku) said what I did -- this engine CAME with the car. To remove this engine from this car would be a CRIME if you ask me or I would imagine most others here (who know what the fuck it actually is).

Now, with that said, I will address two other things, but just once more. Because if I have to state it again, I'll know who wasn't actually paying attention

For one thing, I DO like the novelty of the FJ20 engines. I do also realize it's harder to get components for them (similar to a CA18DET), which is where the KA24DE is better off. BUT... for me, the FJ represents the BEST purist-correct engine (meaning no SR, no KA) that ever came in an S12. I say "best" as a matter of opinion, but IN my opinion, while the CA18DET is more advanced, I believe the FJ is superior in terms of both the strength of the internals, and the flow design of the head. I could care less about independent coil setup, or trick timing advance. But again, that is preference and opinion. But because of that opinion, if I wanted to go with what I felt was the "ultimate" PURIST-correct engine for an S12, IT WOULD BE THE FJ. Others might say it would be the CA18DET. Again, it comes down to opinion.

WHAT IS MORE, the FJ20 *IS* actually superior to the CA18DE or the KA24DE in terms of natural aspiration potential. The head is designed in such a way as to optimize aspiration, and was originally intended for a dual carburetion system, and the only major difference between the FJ24 and the EFI FJ20E/ET is mostly in the bottom end.

While the CA18DE isn't a bad NA engine, it doesn't hold a candle to the nearly straight-through intake/exhaust airpath of the FJ head. The air almost "skips" off of the combustion chamber. And the KA24DE's sharp airpath bends are a terrible NA design for higher horsepower goals.

Really, there is no trick to getting loads of power from an NA FJ. It's pretty straightforward. Open the intake system wide as you can go (i.e. high-flow carbs, such as Weber DCOE's), give it the right fuel to match the new air volume, and plenty of spark. Advance the timing, use a super lumpy cam. Thinner cometic head gasket for further compression. Will that net you 300hp NA? Maybe.... maybe not. But it'll get you DAMN close at the very least, and without the delays of boost (giving you amazing response).

IN contrast, the EFI setups in both the CA18DE and KA24DE are only part of the limiting factors of NA expectations. Even with ITB's and stand-alone, neither of those engines will hold a candle to the airflow capacity of the FJ (due to port flow limitations, port geometry designed more for torque than horsepower). Those who have tried have hit a pretty solid performance wall, which is why both the KA24DE and the CA18DET are considered best boosted... because boost overcomes these limitations.

Although once you consider the FJ20ET, it still benefits from the superior head design and with the added benefit of stupid-strong internals, giving it a double edge over the other two. And meaning that making power is easier and safer than the other two engines.

Despite it's difficulty in obtaining parts

So three things here:

1. This engine came with my car, and I'd be stupid to even consider removing it. So I might as well work with it, and own something rare, unusual, and yet still powerful.

2. The FJ is an important part of the S12 legacy, and arguably the meanest engine Nissan put in an S12 from the factory.

3. The FJ is actually a damn good performance platform in terms of tuning potential, despite the difficulty/hassle of obtaining parts. And I don't need first-hand experience to know this, since the potential of the FJ20 is so well documented on a few sites (including AUS12, FJ20.com, and of course, Club-S12... if one bothers to look at old threads).

If that doesn't make it clear enough, I don't know what will.

Another thing to consider that I imagine most people are overlooking. Jason doesn't plan to drive the crap out of this car. It's more of a museum piece or a garage queen if you will that will only be turned over every once in a while to take it to car shows.

Is it practical to restore a Duesenberg? No, but people still do so and enjoy the challenge. This is no different, Jason is merely investing the preservation of a piece of Nissan history. For the most part, aside from the Weber carbs, this is a numbers matching car. Anyone who restores classic cars knows the relevance of what that means.

my 2 cents

Whoa there buddy, I never said anything about removing anything. I just said the FJ would be a hassle to upkeep. I also did not even start the argument on which motor is superior. I honestly don't care. With enough money, one could build anything.

You want my 2 cents? Properly put the motor back together, ditch the carbs and go EFI and get it tuned. Carbs work, but EFI is where it's at, especially when you want to squeeze every last ounce of power out of that thing.

It always makes me laugh when people who have never owned/driven an FJ powered car like to bag them...

ive owned/driven a number of A series, L series, CA series, RB series, VQ series SR and FJ series cars.

ive owned 7 FJ's now, and would own another anyday over a/another SR/KA/CA.
i live i country flooded with imports from Japan, but even so FJ cars are rare.

Sure, they are old. but they are no more obselete than the chassis they are fitted to.
Mine is 27 years old in my US12 RS-X.

they were never a high production engine,which is why they are desirable. but as a result parts are less obtainable too. i have heard it rumoured that there was only 2500 FJ powered cars built, but cant confirm that.

but hey, its not everyday you need to go down the road to buy a gasket set or simular is it!

you pull down an SR, CA, and FJ side by side, and you'll see why they have such a reputation. the room for potential from factory without modifying any internals is huge.

there major downfall is the primitive EFI system. but so many aftermarket EFI systems make it easy to overcome.

Wait, who the fuck is comparing an FJ vs KA? It scares me to death that no one understands what I'm talking about. Is this really all club-s12 can do? Turn valid points of convenience, cool factor, and common sense into a VS thread?

versus threads are so 2006

^^
It always makes me laugh when no one understands a god damn thing and turns it into a showcase of their own "supposed" egotistical knowledge.

It always makes me laugh when no one understands a god damn thing and turns it into a showcase of their own "supposed" egotistical knowledge.

deadpirateFJ NA carb'd? Don't you already have a KA? Why bother? At least with the KA you can run to the nearest store and get literally everything

deadpirateAside from it making the exact same power, I'm sure it will be better by leaps and bounds when it dies on the road and you're forced to wait the next month for maintenance parts to come in.

Engineered better than a KA? Absolutely.

An obsolete engine stateside? Absolutely.

All it can ever do at this point is look cool and get you brownie points. It'd be a pretty neat door stop too

HOWEVER THAT WAS NOT THE POINT OF MY FIRST POST, I was simply implying that you'll be making KA power with a carb'd FJ.

deadpirateMy logic and judgement follows that of ease, accessibility and fun/dollar ratio. You honestly don't have to pour every single bit of information you've learned off of wikipedia and google search, you talk as if you've applied any of this information in the real world.

I also find it hard to believe that you don't understand what I had meant although I had already explained it. I know you already have a KA car, why would anyone tell you to have two?

I've also had enough triple weber experience with many an L series, mind you, and it really would be the day to see that power from an FJ. But you're talking about potential possibilities here, for example a single cam ka making 300+hp carbureted is already standard practice for places such as rebello.

However, YOU, doing anything remotely similar, really would be quite the day. And I await your progress, rather than read your about these "possibilities". You can talk as long as you want, man, people read your posts like they read jeffwins posts. They're skimmed, if that.

deadpirateWait, who the fuck is comparing an FJ vs KA? It scares me to death that no one understands what I'm talking about. Is this really all club-s12 can do? Turn valid points of convenience, cool factor, and common sense into a VS thread?

versus threads are so 2006

^^
It always makes me laugh when no one understands a god damn thing and turns it into a showcase of their own "supposed" egotistical knowledge.

hmm. my opinion here

the op here is a dumbass, and doesnt understand car enthusiasm.

which basically means anyone can do whatever they want.

my sohc ka was 40 bux, made 133 rwhp, it was fun etc. the amount of  money a fj costs i could build my sohc up etc. make it SOOO cool.

but, id still have a single cam ka.. and no matter wat the fj is "arro's holy grail"

its a vintage motor in a vintage car, not stateside. which is bad ass. and the motor came with the car out of nissan.

so what some shit breaks, he has a few cars, his enthusiasm and values into his car will get him back on the road.

everyones not out there to make the most horsepower.

just like alot of forum members here arent out there to have the fastest car,
i drive my s12 because its different. its unique from other cars out there. i could easily put my sr into a s13 and clear my headaches away.

though i dont have the most hp, the most money, and the most skill. i get the credit for trying my best with something different, and not bolt on

David, The OP wasn't the OP, this was split off from the topic "FJ adjustable cam gears" or something like that, that he threw that comment into the mix.

That being said, Spot on dave

JayWait, You mean to tell us you weren't? By COMPARING "Convinence, cool factor, and common sense" to "ease, accessability, and fun/dollar ratio?"
Every single post before this last one by you, WAS comparing KA to FJ..... I suggest you reread your own posts, and re evaluate the whole ""Supposed" Egotistical knowledge" comment you just said. Reiterate EXACTLY what you mean, because this last post, shows to me, that your the one not reading.

okay well....not to get involved in an argument that isn't mine...

but you accuse arro of a superiority problem, and that's contradictory. I sense a fair amount of superiority coming from you, sir, calling us all infants and accusing the site as a collective of being essentially retarded.

that being said, I think the original point [in my opinion] was whether or not the FJ is a superior motor to the KA, which...it is.

my opinion does not include parts availability, or cool factor, or anything like that...these things are irrelevant.

the plain and simple fact is that the FJ is simply a better engineered motor, that's all there is to it.

finally, a word to the wise: if you can't make a valid point...don't default to name calling and inflammatory accusations. it's makes us all think you're a prick, and when Arro raises the group vote to kick you out it puts you one step closer to Banland...just a thought.

I wouldnt really say much about being the first guy knowing or doing much with an FJ on these forums.  You stated 03 in another thread...  I do know for a fact that the tech I work with who has owned S12s for about 15yrs has also known about the FJ and has one for just shy of that many years.  He is also one of those who were on here years ago.

But I do agree, for power, a standalone coupled with an FJ would be awesome.  I dont know much about carbs so cannot speak on that, but I do understand that carbs gave way to EFI for a reason.  Talking with some Aussies just recently, I've learned a fair amount.

But for the comment of more of a garage queen type car, totally understand that.  I am there.  I do have to say, dont just take it out to shows and such.  If the weather is good, def. take her out!  I dont drive mine as much as I used to, but when the time is right, I enjoy a good ride and esp. on the freeway.  

But what are we comparing exactly?  Stock KA and FJ?  Modified KA and FJ?  Potential power that can be made from either engine at its peak performance?  I am lost.  Since this is split off another thread, I dont know what is to be in context or not to a previous thread.

I read the original thread, as far as I understand we were just trying to say that the FJ was a superior motor to the KA, and that's it.

then it started getting shitty because someone started throwing in factors like parts availability and such...which as I said, it irrelevant to the point.

the FJ is a sturdier, better engineered motor than the KA, and that's the true base of the point.

I agree with your post colin for the most part, except the comments about who knew about FJ's first on here. It's a fair statement to say that I was the third person on Club-S12 to mention the FJ, the first two being australians who had SEEN one, but at that time, no FJ S12 owners were on this forum. I did my own homework and learned about them after that, but I was the first person on here who actually gave serious consideration to the idea of tinkering with one. ON HERE. I can't speak for people who've had the engine in their garage, collecting dust for 15 years. I can only speak for Club-S12, in which case I was the original FJ preacher on this forum, since the second year of its running.

Back then, the popular *IDEA* was to put an SR20DET in an S12. I say "idea" because back then, only ONE person had done an SR swap (an SR20DE), his name on here was "miker", from the Philippines if I remember right. Not long after that, Cesar from sr20store.com put an SR20DET in his turbo hatchback.

Not long after that, the idea for the KA swaps popped up, and a couple people did KA24E's. Then a couple KA24DE's were swapped. This was late '03. So all this happened within two years. And after that, things just died for awhile. Mostly because nobody bothered to document wiring diags for these swaps, so it was largely left up to the swapper to figure all of it out for himself.

Anyways enough early C-S12 history, my point is I am the *original* FJ lover on this forum.

Now as far as me being a bigshot... I will admit, in some respects, I probably come off that way. But then, if it weren't for me, the idea for this place MIGHT never have happened. And I have put in a LOT of work over the years, before and after my two year hiatus, to keep things on-target. It's more than a hobby for me sometimes, it's a passion. And I don't do it to feel important. I'm not the smartest or most technical guy on here, but I *am* important because I have a clear view of where to take things, and of how to perpetuate the community for the forseeable future.

But I don't do it for personal glory. Or to feel like I am a part of something big (although it's a nice perk, I admit). I do it for everyone else.

Now, let me comment on the Silvia RS-X I own. Sure, I bought it. Sure, I think it's fucking awesome. But I didn't want it for bragging rights. And seriously, how often have I even posted about it since I initially bought it? Listen, other people offered Grant a LOT more than I paid him for it. He didn't want to sell it to just anyone. He wanted it to go to someone who had the means to take care of it properly, and who understood it's value to the community as a whole. If anything, I often feel less like and owner, and more like I am a custodian of this car for the sake of all of Club-S12. And for S12 enthusiasts all over the world, since worldwide there are but a handful of good specimens left (that we are aware of).

If anyone thinks that this makes me some kind of "big shot", then oh well. I run this place, and I happen to have in my possession what I feel is one of the coolest incarnations of our S12's.

Now, what will I do with it engine-wise?

Tune it as a carb'd FJ.

EFI is NOT necessarily "where it's at". And not with the FJ in NA form, for sure. These engines love to BREATHE. About the only advantage the EFI has is altitude changes. Otherwise, the carb'd setup on there now is more than plenty to let this engine injest mass quantities of air. What's more, this Weber FJ intake manifold is a cast piece of a SMALL series run for Nissan -- NOT, to the best of my knowledge, for consumer purchase. Which makes this config also very rare. And makes this car uber-unique. I actually have the original EFI harness and intake, computers, etc, but I see no GOOD reason to put them back and restrict the engine in the process. And I'm not going to boost it, either.

Now, there is a second head and cams, and I have an FJ turbo manifold, and that EFI harness and intake mani. With a turbo bottom end, I would have the parts for a complete FJ20ET. I have been contemplating this, because frankly I really do like the brute-force design of the FJ series engines, and as was mentioned, I have other cars for DD's, so I can afford to pursue such routes.

Really tho, I think making your DD a heavily-tuned S12 is a mistake, but that's a different matter, one which I won't even debate.

Point is, I have this car, and I will continue with it in the path that it was set forth in before I bought it. Carb'd.

Long story short: arro's rs-x came with an fj in it...so its in its original platform. Why would he rip out the fj for an 'easier' ka? I love arro's rs-x that car is tits.

He's not a dummy like me who's gonna get a wrecked up fj to rebuild and put into something [prolly my s13 coupe] xD

lol this thread is the best

but also has no reason to exist
imo u guys ignored the obvious cuz u really just wanted to argue

IggyEGuanalol this thread is the best

but also has no reason to exist
imo u guys ignored the obvious cuz u really just wanted to argue  

Do I literally have to spell it out for everyone?
I pretty much told mr.bigshot to do something spectacular with his FJ, reason being, it's a fucking FJ.

He went bat shit crazy with "inferior ka yada yada"
It was then that I defended my position.

Also you can easily note that I did not include a "factual" or "potential" excel spreadsheet of numbers or yada yada yada.

You also asked me questions about those crazy ka-e's even after I had already stated the name "rebello". It's 2010, google it.

Fucking Christ, it's quite apparent that some of you have the reading/comprehension skills of a toddler. I don't think anyone here understands the concept of context.

+1 jay

Not sure FJ can street 300hp NA with no problem, might be possible tho, and maybe I;'ll find out.

Ambiguous arro is ambiguous

To me this started about parts availability of a KA and a FJ and if something breaks you can go to any parts place to get parts for a KA and not wait a couple weeks.....well this is why its not a DD like Arro said and i'm building my FJ Notch to occasionally drive it to show and what not....thats why i have another S12 to DD  

SO basically KA=DD.......FJ=Respect lol

Trust me it took me almost a year to figure out where to get parts when i first got my FJ....but it paid off to research because i can get anything for my FJ......it just cost $$$$$$$$$ but hell of worth it at the end......

arro i will def. take ur car anyday fj and all!!

My car goes vroom tss